« SebelumnyaLanjutkan »
Mr. Borthwick was sure the workhouse , employment; Provided always, that such retest would not suit Scotland ; it was only lief to the able-bodied has the approbation of calculated to destroy the independence of the Board of Supervision.” the people. The able-bodied poor were not
The Lord Advocate said, he must oppose now entitled to relief in the sense in which this clause upon the same grounds as the other poor were ; but it was neither the previous proposition. If it were dangerous law nor the practice in Scotland to exclude to introduce the principle of able-bodied them from all relief when starving. The relief, under particular circumstances, into best way would be to move the omission of counties, it was equally so as regarded the proviso.
town. Mr. Ewart thought the law, being am
After a few words from Mr. Ross and biguous, ought to be settled by this Act ; Mr. Baine, in support of the clause, but the present clause seemed to exclude The Committee again divided on the able-bodied poor from relief, even when Question that the clause be added :-Ayes only occasionally destitute.
31; Noes 67: Majority 36. Mr. S. Crawford agreed that the proviso
Clause agreed to. had better be excluded.
If the able
On Clause 71, bodied poor had a right to relief, it ought
Mr. Sharman Crawford moved to exnot to be taken away, particularly when punge the proviso at the end of the clause, the clearance system had been prevailing, enactingas it had been proved to be, in some parts
“ That it shall not be competent for any of Scotland.
Court of Law to entertain or decide any action
relative to the amount of relief granted by Mr. Ewart moved that the proviso
parochial Boards, unless the Board of Super“That nothing herein contained shall be vision shall previously have declared that held to confer a right to demand relief on there is a just cause of action, as hereinbeable-bodied persons out of employment”.
fore provided." be omitted.
The hon. Member said he could not Mr. Hastie said, that in Paisley the au. consent to create any obstacle to the thorities had had the greatest possible dif. poor man obtaining relief by appealing to ficulty in keeping the public peace in times the higher court of justice; and he must, of distress, when they were told that by the therefore, press the Amendment. law in England no man could be allowed Mr. P. M. Stewart hoped that some to starve, and when they had an impres. explanation from the proper quarter would sion that under the law of Scotland they be given of this anomalous clause. It had a legal right to demand relief. He was unconstitutional in principle, and its called
upon the Government in this clause operation would be most unfair and unjust to determine whether the able-bodied to the poor. should or should not have the right. The Lord Advocate said, the clause was
Mr. Borthwick said, that by the law of one which would confer the greatest possi1579 in Scotland, as by the law of the ble benefit on the poor of Scotland. It same year in England, the able-bodied poor would take them out of the hands of those were to be provided with work, and the professional persons who had their inproviso in this clause would do away with terests under iheir control at present; it the old law.
would relieve them from the tedium and The Committee divided on the Question, risk of lawsuits, and would save the parish that the words proposed to be left out funds for the relief of pauperism. The case stand part of the clause:-Ayes 73; Noes stood thus at present : if the parochial 21 : Majority 52.
board should not listen to the pauper's apMr. Hastie moved the following pro. plication for relief, he could go to the viso :
Supreme Court, and he could get relief “ Provided nevertheless, that it shall be there, because, being a pauper, he could lawful for the Parochial Board of every sue in formâ pauperis; bui in order so to parish, or combination of parishes, 10 allow sue, he must obtain a certificate from a out of the funds raised by assessment or body of professional persons, who, by the otherwise for the relief of the poor there
practice of the court, were appointed to of, such relief to able-bodied persons within such parishes or combination of pa
investigate the matter, and report whether rishes as the Board may deem necessary, dur
the party applying had a good case or not. ing the existence of temporary disiress, arising
Then, having got their certificate, he could from the inability of such person to obtain go before the court; but he might be there many long years. What did this clause clause, for he believed that it tended to give him? It enacted that, if the paro- make this Bill one of the most cruel Poor chial board should not have given the Laws that ever was enacted. The Bill itpauper what he thought adequate relief, self inflicted the greatest possible injury instead of remaining content with that upon the poor of Scotland; and, looking decision (as must be done in England), he at this clause, and those clauses further should be enabled, by the simplest applica-on with regard to settlement, he feared tion-by a mere letter-to the board of that he had done wrong hitherto in giving supervision, to call upon them to consider his support to it at all. He trusted that his case and inquire into it; and he (the the Bill would not be allowed to pass this Lord Advocate) ventured to say that a Session, at any rate, and he would beg to board constituted as that would be, partly ask the right hon. Gentleman why such a of lawyers and partly of persons not law proviso should be allowed to remain ? yers, would be as capable of saying whe- The Committee divided, on the Question, ther the pauper had a good case, and that the proviso stand part of the clause: giving him a certificate to sue in forma - Ayes 79; Noes 35: Majority 44. pauperis, as the lawyers who at present Clause agreed to. reported to the Court of Session. But On Clause 72, more than this, the board of supervision “That from and after the passing of this was empowered 10 fix the amount of re- Act, no person shall be held to have acquired lief which the pauper should receive, and a settlement in any parish by residence, unless that amount of relief he would receive un- such person shall have resided for five years in less it were taken from him by the court
such parish :” of law, and he could get that without ex. Lord Duncan moved that the term of pense or delay. Was that no benefit? If five years should be substituted for seven the matter were carried into a court of law, years. he (the Lord Advocate) ventured to say, The Committee divided on the Question, that no long time would elapse before it that the word “five” stand part of the would be found that the court very seldom clause :-Ayes 108; Noes 8: Majority overthrew the decision of the board of 100. supervision in his favour, if any parish The Committee again divided on the should have the temerity to enter into liti- Question, that the word “continuously" gation on the subject.
be inserted after the words “five years" : Mr. Aglionby thought the learned Lord - Ayes 88; Noes 25: Majority 63. Advocate had not answered the objection Amendment agreed to. of the hon. Member (Mr. S. Crawford). The Lord Advocate proposed an alteraThe bon. Member objected that where the tionunder which the Irish were to be enaboard of supervision should have refused bled to obtain a settlement in Scotland a certificate, the pauper would be barred after certain residence, and under cerfrom suing in formå pauperis, unless' he tain circumstances. It had been said that obtained the certificate of the learned per- as the Scotch were allowed to obtain a sons of whom the Lord Advocate had setilement in Ireland without any condispoken, and who would never grant a cer- tion, the Irish, upon a principle of reciprotificate after the refusal of the board. The city, should have the same benefit in pauper would also be barred of his interim Scotland. But the share of nothing which aliment, and it was for these reasons, the Irish gave to the Scotch, was no reason which the learned Lord Advocate had not for the share of something which the Irish refuted, that the proviso appeared to him claimed from them. But be that as it (Mr. Aglionby) to be worse than useless. mighi, a fixed residence ought to be deTo expunge it would not lead to litigation manded from every stranger before he either on the part of attorneys or paupers, gained a setilement; and under the Bill, and he thought it ought not to stand in as it now stood, the Irish were treated in the Bill.
the same manner as other strangers. He Mr. Hastie observed, that this clause proposed to strike out certain words of the provided one law for the rich, and another clause in order that, if a person had been for the poor. The rich man could go at absent five years, without having resided once to the Court of Session, whilst that say twelvemonths out of that period in the step was denied to the poor man.
parish to which he belonged, his right of Mr. Wakley could not support the settlement should not be continued.
Colonel Rawdon thought the proposi
Sir W. Somerville hastened to express tion of the hon, and learned Advocate was the satisfaction with which he witnessed a fair one.
He desired to see the Irish- the favourable change made in the Bill man in Scotland placed upon the same so far as the natives of Ireland were confooting as the Scotchman in Ireland.
cerned. He was quite certain that the Mr. George Hamilton said, he thought the sentiment of hospitality which inspired proposition a fair one. It was fairer than that alteration, was felt, to an equal if not the speech, and better than the reasoning, a greater degree, amongst his countrymen of the Lord Advocate; the learned Lord for strangers. Indeed, he could quote had neither done justice to the Irish, nor instances in which, amongst the applito the administration of the Irish Poor canis for relief in a district in the south Law. It was quite true that there was no of Ireland, preference had been given to settlement or right to relief founded upon Scotchmen over Irishmen, purely from a settlement in Ireland ; but then it should generous desire to relieve the stranger be recollected that the want of a settle- / first. ment in Ireland did not preclude relief- Sir J.M Taggart objected most strongly and the relief afforded was not an occasional to the proposed alteration in the law of but a permanent relief. That relief was settlement in Scotland as regarded the afforded in Ireland to Scotchmen equally Irish. In the district with which he was as to Irishmen—destitution was there the connected, and which he consequently only qualification for relief; and, practi- best knew, the Scotch very seriously felt cally, every destitule person was considered their irruption. On looking at the roll of to have a right to relief, whatever country the poor in his own parish, he found that he belonged to. Instead, therefore, of there four-fifths of those receiving relief were being no reciprocity, as the Lord Advo- Irish. The influx was principally from cate bad stated, the Scotchman in Ireland Donaghadee to Portpatrick. One day, was actually better off than in Scotland. In when he was crossing over from Ireland Scotland the Scotchman could not claim re- to the latter port, he said to an Irish lief, unless he had a settlement of five labourer, who was a passenger in the years' industrial residence. In Ireland he same vessel, “ Well, Pat, and what takes was relieved, without settlement, if he was you to Scotland ?” *Oh, an sure your destitute. The Irish system, therefore, was Honour," replied the fellow, “it is not the more liberal of the two-and Scotchmen want, for we've plenty of that at home." had no reason to complain. At the same He objected to any alteration in the time he thought it not unfair that a clause. stranger, after acquiring a settlement, Colonel Rawdon said, that after the should forfeit it by a long absence; and alteration made by the learned Lord he was, therefore, satisfied with the pro- Advocate, he should certainly not persist position of Government.
in bringing forward the Amendmeni of Viscount Duncan observed, that in which he had given notice. England the law of settlement was very Mr. P. M. Stewart approved of the stringent; that in Ireland there was no alterations proposed by the Lord Advolaw of settlement; and he now wanted to cate. He thought that after five years' know if it were intended that five years' industrial labour, a man earned a right to residend in Scotland should constiute a settlement; and he believed, that if the righi to relief.
He would ask, were they law was properly observed by residents in prepared to allow as many as pleased of Scotland, they would have none but usethe disabled Irish lo establish themselves ful Irishmen in that country. in Scotland ?
Mr. G. Craig complained, that the proViscount Clements said, that a great many visions of this Bill should be abandoned Scotchmen were employed in Ireland in in this wholesale
He must say, he confidential and lucrative situations; thought the Scotch Members were not
; therefore no undue impediment should treated with proper respect, when imporbe put in the way of the Irish acquiring tant alterations were introduced of which settlements in Scotland.
they had received no intimation, Mr. Lockhart thought the alteration The Amendments proposed by the Lord introduced into the clause affecting the Advocate were then agreed 10. Irish paupers, merited the most serious The Committee divided, on the Quesaltention of hon. Members opposite. tion, that the clause as amended stand
part of the Bill :-Ayes 95; Noes 16: tody, stating that since the publication of Majority 79.
the Report of the Committee before which Člause agreed to. House resumed. Mr. Baker gave evidence, the petitioner Committee to sit again.
had suffered in his trade and character by House adjourned at two o'clock. the circulation of that Report ; that pro
ceedings in a criminal court were at that
time pending in relation to the matter to HOUSE OF LORDS, which Mr. Baker's testimony referred, and Tuesday, July 15, 1845.
Mr. Baker was afterwards examined as a
witness in those proceedings, but never atMINUTES.] Sat first.—The Lord Harris, after the Death of
tempted to prove what he had stated before Bills. Public. - Reported. — Administration of Justice the Committee; that the statement was (Court of Chancery) Acts Amendment ; Law of Defama- false and untrue; and the petitioner trusted tion and Libel Act Amendment: Constables, Public the House would be graciously pleased to Works (Ireland); Statute Labour (Scotland). 3. and passed :--Unions (Ireland).
make some allowance for his feelings being Reported.-Sampson's Estate (Ward's); Preston and Wyre so wounded ; that he would not have taken Railway; Wear Valley Railway; Liverpool and Bury the present proccedings, if he had been Railway (Bolton, Wigan, and Liverpool Railway and Bury Extension); Erewash Valley Railway ; Direct aware of their being a breach of privilege, London and Portsmouth Railway; Harwell and Streatley and he had accordingly instructed his soliRoad; Saint Matthew's (Bethnal Green) Rectory.
citor to withdraw the action ; and the peti3. and passed :--Sir Robert Keith Dick's Estate. Petitions Presented. By Bishop of London, from Ler- tioner humbly expressed his extreme regret
wick, and Old Meldrum, for the Suppression of Intem- at having committed a breach of privilege, perance, especially on the Sabbath.—By the Marquess of Breadalbane, from Free Church at Holytown, and from and hoped the House would be graciously Inhabitants of Stanley, against the Running of Railway pleased to pardon the offence he had so Trains on the Sabbath.--By Lord Campbell, from Ge- unintentionally committed. The noble neral Convention of Royal Burghs of Scotland, for the and learned Lord added, that it was impos.. Adoption of a Measure to abolish Exclusive Privileges in Trade.— By Marquess of Breadalbane, from Presbytery sible to express greater contrition for the of Inverary, and of Lorn, for Improving the Condition
grave and inexpiable offence of having reof Schoolmasters (Scotland).-From Congregation of Free Church of Bridge of Allan, for the Adoption of sorted to the law of the land. It was not a Measure to change the present System of Parochial known by the petitioner to be a crime; it Schools (Scotland).
was known only to Parliament ; it had TENANTS' COMPENSATION (IRELAND) moved that John Harlow be discharged
never been promulgated in any law. He Bill.] Lord Stanley said, that he would out of custody on payment of his fees; for hope to be excused for the irregularity of
SO, he was sorry to say, it must be. referring to anything that took place in a
The Lord Chancellor, on the facts stated Select Committee ; but at its last meeting in the petition, was willing to accede to he stated, on the part of the Government, the Motion. As the noble and learned that seeing the strong feeling manifested Lord was not acting as counsel for this both in Committee and in the House, it
the latter must not be held anwas the intention of the Government to swerable for what he had said. propose various and not unimportant modi
Lord Campbell thought it would not be fications in the measure. From the pres, exactly fair to the petitioner to make him sure of business upon the Attorney General answerable for the sarcasms of his noble for Ireland, and from various circumstances, and learned Friend, and he should, therethere had been great difficulty in engraft- fore, concur in the Motion. ing such Amendments on the Bill; and The said John Harlow was then brought though he (Lord Stanley) did not give up to the bar, and reprimanded in the followthe hope of presenting the Bill in the pre- ing terms by sent Session, as amended by the Committee,
The Lord Chancellor : You have been yet looking to the state of the Session, and taken into custody for a breach of the acthe opposition to be expected, he thought knowledged privileges of this House, in it fair to noble Lords concerned upon the bringing an action against Thomas Baker, subject to say, that he did not intend, upon for words which he spoke in the course of that Bill, in the course of the present Ses- giving evidence before one of the Commitsion, to take the opinion of the House as
tees of this House. For that offence you to any further step.
have been committed to custody. You
have presented a petition in which you Privilege.] Lord Brougham presented have expressed your contrition, and you a petition from John Harlow, now in cus- have also stated that you have given orders
to discontinue the action. Their Lordships, and have expressed your contrition for the
discharged on paying your fees.
Then he was taken from the bar.
our own domestic differences should always Lord Campbell thought enough had been be laid aside, because we have all, be our done for the public good ; and he had no political opinions what they may, a comdoubt his noble and learned Friend (Lord mon interest in exhibiting ourselves to Brougham), who felt so warmly on the the world united, and in an attitude to subject, would pay the fees both of the command respect; and we are all equally attorney and the tobacconist.
concerned in advancing the interests, and, Lord Brougham : I think I have done above everything, in upholding the dignity, quite enough for the privileges of this and inaintaining unsuliied the honour and House, in keeping my gravity during the good faith of our country. Differences of operation which has lately been performed. opinion will of course arise as to the means
The said Peter Taite Harbin was then by which these great national objects may brought to the bar, and reprimanded in the be most effectually secured; but they should following terms by
always be approached with the caution beThe Lord Chancellor : You have been
fitting their importance, and be discussed,