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House would at once go into Committee, strenuously the progress of this Bill, in when there would be an opportunity of consequence of the injustice inflicted upon adopting any improvements. He had the Irish residents in Scotland by it. By always found that the Lord Advocate one of the clauses an Irishman was prehad been willing to listen to suggestions vented getting a settlement in Scotland; for the improvement of the measure. The although he might have spent his youth 16th Clause had been so much amended, and his manhood in that country, such an as to remove nearly all the objections to it. industrious man, engaged in manufactures
Mr. E. Ellice confirmed what had been for twenty or thirty years, was liable to stated by the hon. Member for Paisley be sent to Ireland at a moment's notice. (Mr. Hastie). The condition of the poor | Unless the right bon. Baronet abandoned of Scotland within the last eighteen the clause, he trusted that his hon. and months, compared with what it had pre. gallant Friend would move that it be comviously been, had been made much better mitted that day three months. If his by the discovery of the actual state of the hon. Friend did not do so, he certainly law with regard to them. This was not would. a party question here or in Scotland; Mr. T. Duncombe said, that it was he had conversed with men of all politics rather singular that only on Wednesday upon it, and had met with but one evening last, one of the reasons urged by opinion—that, if the Bill passed in its the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for present shape, it would be likely to pro- the Home Department, for the rejecduce very mischievous effects. The alle- tion of the Scotch Universities Bill was, gations of the petitions against it were, that no petitions had been presented in that it would deprive the poor of their pre- favour of it; but to-night, in answer to sent remedy against the heritors, and the remark that there was no petition in subject them to an irresponsible power favour of this Bill, he replied, that it was in order to put the law into effect. He not customary to present petitions in gave the Government credit for honest favour of Bills, and, above all, of a measure intentions; but they only knew the state like the present. He happened to know of the people of Scotland, through a that there existed a very strong feeling prejudiced channel; with respect to Scot- against the Bill in many parts of Scotland, land, they appeared to be subjected to and more particularly in several of the some influence that blighted all they large towns. He had no connexion with took in hand. Had their measures with Scotland; but petitions had been intrusted respect to the Scotch Church, or any to him against the measure from many other of their measures with regard to places, some of which had thousands of Scotland, been satisfactory to the people? signatures attached to them. The ScoiHad they not all met with general con- tish labouring classes generally considered demnation? On a subject of such vast that the Bill would place them in a worse importance, ample time ought to be position than before, it being altogether given for consideration; as the know- destructive of that right of appeal in their ledge of the provisions of the Bill ex- favour, which had only of late been distended, the objections to it would in- covered to exist. crease. He hoped the Government would Colonel Rawdon said, that almost postpone it till next Session; if not, he every Scotch Member who had spoken on hoped other parties in another place this subject had opposed the Bill, and on would prevent it from passing this year. the part of the Irish Members there was
Mr. Duncan was constantly receiving a united action against it. He begged communications from Scotland stating to move that the House go into Committee objections to the measure. He felt that c the Bill that day three months. it was only common justice that it should Sir J. Graham would put it to the be postponed to another Session. He had gallant Member whether, as the objec. not received a single letter in favour of lions he and other Gentlemen near him the Bill. He was anxious for an amend advanced, were objections to details, ment of the present law; but, instead of it would not be better and fairer to discuss this imperfect measure, they had better them in Committee? He had stated 10 wait until next year, when they could get a deputation of Members, who called upon a well-digested Bill.
him at the Home Office, and of which the Mr. Ross felt called upon to oppose hon. and gallant Member was, he believed, Mr. Ewart agreed altogether in what The Report of the Commissioners had had fallen from his hon. Friend who had been before the public for twelve months, just sat down. The measure was one and had been under the consideration of which all parties united in saying could Government during the whole of that not be satisfactory or successful, and the time. If, therefore, the measure then probability was, that if it now became before the House could be called crude jaw, it would have to be amended next and imperfect, the fault must lie with the Session. The delay would also produce Government who liad prepared it, as ample the advantage of enabling those hon. Gen- time and full materials had gone to its tlemen who, though Members for Scot preparation. Besides, the principle of land, had unfortunately the misfortune the measure had been approved of by a not to be born in Scotland, to become very large majority of that House. Neibetter acquainted with the subject. ther could it be said that the House had
Mr. P. M. Stewart said, he would go been taken by surprise. The Bill was a step further than the two hon. Gentle introduced at an early period of the Sesmen who had last addressed the House, sion, and the second reading was postand would ask the Government to apply poned in order that the counties of Scottheir own principle to the Bill which they land might, in their county halls, have had relied on when another Scotch ques- full opportunity of taking the matter into tion had been before the House a few consideration. Neither was the absence nights ago, and to allow their decision of petitions in its favour any evidence of upon it to be regulated by the petitions its unpopularity, as people seldom petithat had been presented from Scoiland on tioned in favour of Government measures the subject. Though the measure was which were generally approved, except one which was of vast importance to their success seemed doubiful. The prinScotland, he believed there had not been cipal petition against this Bill was from a single petition presented in its favour, one parish which was peculiarly situated, whereas numerous petitions from all per- and which, it was feared, would be affectsons interested in the state of the Scotched by the 16th Clause; but that cause of poor had been presented against the Bill. petition was removed, as the clause was All these petitions concurred in represent to be postponed. He thought that, as ing the great necessity of legislation on the principle of the Bill had been fully the subject of the poor of Scotland, discussed and decisively affirmed by the whereas they, at the same time, describ- House, and as they had made considered the Bill introduced by the Govern- able progress in Committee, there was not ment as an ill-digested and an ill-adapted any valid reason existing for its further measure. They stated, that it would postponement. If any hon. Member not allay the discontent existing against wished again to have the opinion of the the present measure, and that the poor House, the best plan would be to let the had no interest whatever in it. That it Bill pass through Committee, and take a would bave the effect of overloading the division on the third reading. Statute Book with eighty clauses, most Mr. Lockhart expressed his satisfaction of which would, as a matter of necessity, that the right hon. Baronet had not postbe repealed next Session. In fact, the poned the progress of the Bill. measure was one which would do no good Mr. Gibson Craig, as they had so far 10 the poor man, while it would have the advanced in Committee, could not effect of throwing him beyond the pale of ceive the expediency of posting the Constitution.
measure. His own Sir J. Graham, in answer to the appeal generally speaking, the of hon. Members opposite, would begin vourably received by stating, that if ever a measure bad certainly some been brought before the House which was in it. completely divested of party character, it Mr. was the Scottish Poor Law. It was also gress admitted that the law for the relief of the we poor in Scotland, was in such a state as to require immediate alteration. There ha been full inquiry, and ample materials immediate legislation had been obtai
I was supbut it had operative, les in the execution. irable that
system of r that, from culiarities, object into in different stance, no assessed to r places no e operation
red, every · year would
Bill now alterations, 'culiar cir. difficulties ty in Scot, the inquipect to the was much verned by cal know1 been inGreenock, and maria y “ means long time · greatest
n the ob rethat the ng would
one, that he intended to make consider-, Mundy, E. M. Sutton, hon. H. M. able modification in many of the clauses Nicholl, rt. hon. J. Thesiger, Sir F. objected to, adding, indeed, that he was
Walsh, Sir J. B. mot prepared to say, the principle of the Peel, rt
, hn. Sir R. Bill as to industrial residence ought not Pringle, A.
Wawn, J. T. to be entirely abandoned.
Wellesley, Lord C. Pusey, P.
Williams, W. Mr. Hamilton thought it well to go Scrope, G. P.
Wortley, hon. J. S. into Committee ; but certainly, when the Smith, rt, hn, T. B. C clauses in question came before them, Smollett, A. they would meet with his opposition unless Somerset, Lord G. Young, J. considerably modified.
Stuart, Lord J.
Lennox, Lord A. Viscount Duncan hoped the Members
List of the Noes. for Ireland would suffer them to go into Acton, Col.
Esmond, Sir T. Committee, on the full understanding that Archbold, R.
Ewart, w. the clause more especially objected to by Baine, W.
Forster, M. them, should, in Committee, undergo Bannerman, A. Grogan, E. thorough investigation.
Barnard, E. G. Hamilton, Lord C. Lord Claude Hamilton should feel
Bernard, Visc. Hastie, A. bound to oppose the progress of the Bill, Bouverie, hon. E. P.
Blake, M. J.
Hume, J. unless some inuch more distinct state- Browne, hon. W.
M'Taggart, Sir J. ment was made by the Government as to Clements, Visct.
Morrison, J. the obnoxious clauses.
Colborne, hn.W.N.R. O'Connell, M, J. The House divided on the Question, Cole, hon. H. A. Pechell, Capt. that the words proposed to be left out Collett
Rashleigh, W. stand part of the question :--Ayes 90;
Curteis, H. B. Somerville, Sir W. M. Noes 38 : Majority 52.
Villiers, hon. C.
Yorke, H. R.
Duncombe, T. Acland, Sir T. D. Duncan, Visct.
Dundas, A Arbuthnot, hon. H. Duncombe, hon. A.
Ross, D. R.
Fremantle, rt, ho.SirT. House in Committee.
On Clause 35,
Gaskell, J. M. Balfour, J.M. Gladstone, rt.hn.W.E. the House to the expediency of rendering
Mr. Gladstone called the attention of Baring, rt, ho. W. B. Gladstone, Capi. Barrington, Visct. Gordon, hon. Capt.
che law clear, that farm labourers and doBennett, P. Gore, M.
mestic servants were not liable to be rated Blackburne, J. I. Goulburn, It. hon. H. to the poor. The present mode of rating Boldero, H. G.
Graham, rt. hon. Sir J. generally in Scotland was most inquisiBorthwick, P. Greene, T. Botfield, B.
torial in its operation. The parochial Hamilton, G. A. Bowes, J. Hampden, R.
boards who managed it were not in any Bramston, T. W. Harcourt, G. G.
way bound to secrecy, and they fixed Broadwood, H. Hawes, B.
upon each person precisely such a rate as Brotherton, J. Henley, J. W. they pleased. That system might be Bruce, Lord E.
Herbert, rt, hon. S. made the means of mucli oppression, and, Bruges, W. H. L. Hodgson, F.
though he was not prepared to say that Buckley, E.
Hogg, J. W. Buller, Sir J. Y.
the English system, as a whole, was appliHope, Sir J. Camphell, Sir H. liope, hon. C.
cable to Scotland, he would throw out Cardwell, E. Houldsworth, T.
that that system might be adopted as the Clerk, rt, hon. Sir G. Hughes, W. B. basis of an improved system for Scotland. Codrington, Sir W. Hussey, A.
He hoped that the Lord Advocate would Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Jermyn, Earl indicate his intention of taking the whole Corry, right hon. H. Lincoln, Earl of
law of rating in Scotland into his serious Courtenay, Lord Lockhart, w.
consideration; for he was persuaded that Craig, W.G.
Lowther, Sir J. H.
it would be found impossible to allow it Davies, D. A. S, Mackenzie, T.
to reinain in its present state. Dickinson, f. H. Mackenzie, W, F.
The Lord Advocate said, with reference Dodd, G. M'Neill, D.
to what had been stated by his right hon. Douglas, Sir C. E.
Milnes, R. M. Friend the Member for Newark, he would
admit that there were difficulties in the Mr. Ewart wished to know upon what way of assessment; but he had not se- principle the assessment was to be made; lected the mode of assessment referred to that was, how the income of the party in this Bill; it had existed for two cen- was to be ascerlained ? was it to be by a turies and more, and he had not ventured return, as in the case of the Income Tax, to abolish it. He had had representa- and if not, in what way? tions from many parishes, assuring him The Lord Advocate said, under the exthat the system had acted satisfactorily. isting law, parties were appointed to estiHe bad by the provisions of this Bill given mate the incomes; and in this respect, to every parish the power of escaping from also, he left the law as he found it. the difficulties of the present system, and Mr. Duncan contended that these were had endeavoured to remove the existing matters which should be decided by the inequalities.
Legislature, and not left to local parties Mr. Poulett Scrope thought, that if any afterwards. alteration were made in the law of assess- Sir J. Graham said, that the hon, Memment, it should be permanent in its cha-bers who contended for a uniform mode racter. Otherwise they should not inter- of rating were generally opposed to this fere with it.
Bill. The construction of the Act Mr. Hume said, if there was ground for known
Pouleit Scrope's Act, postponing a Bill, the want of power to
was to introduce into England one uniexplain how the many cases of difficulty form and inflexible system of rating. The that would arise were to be met, was Act was very well intended, and was sup, ground sufficient. The only effect of this ported by the Government; but it had measure would be to unsettle ihai which been found, to a great extent, inoperative,
now settled. Under this Bill a owing to the practical difficulties in the Scotch proprietor, having 30,0001. in the way of carrying it into general execution. English funds, would be liable to be as. It was found that, however desirable that sessed to the Scotch poor-rate on the full there should be one general system of amount of his income; the effect of this rating throughout England, yet that, from would be to drive people from Scotland.
local circumstances and local peculiarities, The Lord Advocate said that, under the it was impossible to carry that object into law as it at present stood, all personal effect. Circumstances varied in different property was liable to be assessed to the localities. In Liverpool, for instance, no relief of the poor in the parish in which occupier under 101. a year was assessed to the possessor of such property resided; the relief of the poor; in other places no and ihe Bill now before ihe House did not, occupier under 5l. But by the operation therefore, effect any alteration in this re- of the Act to which he had referred, every spect in the existing law.
occupier to the extent of 40s. a year would Mr. Escott complained that funded be rateable for the poor. The Bill now property was liable to assessment. The before the House proposed no alterations, practice operated most unjustly, and he unless to remove doubts in peculiar cir hoped thai it would not be allowed to cumstances. He admitted the difficulties continue under this Bill.
with respect to rating property in ScotThe Lord Advocate replied, that by sitorial system adopted with respect to the
land; but unless they adopted the inquithe law of Scotland, as it now stood, Income Tax, he thought it was much parties were liable to be assessed to the better to leave this to be governed by whole amount of their property; and he local circumstances, and the local knowdid not propose to make any alteration in
ledge of the parties. He had been in
formed by the hon. Member for Greenock, Mr. Escott said, suppose a man worth that in that great commercial and mari10,0001. a year were to live in lodgings, time town the mode of rating by“ means for which he paid 301. a year, how could and substance," had been for a long time he be assessed in the full amount of his in operation, and had given the greatest property?
satisfaction. The Lord Advocate apprehended that M:. Baine could not concur in the ob. in such a case the party would escape jections to this clause. He was sure that the altogether from the rate.
adoption of a uniform rate of rating would