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or Parties opposing the Bill : That where any a railroad within a mile of their own Committee has directed Erpenses to be paid by houses. any such Party, it shull report such Direction to the House specially, with the Circumstances Aicing costs should be given by Act of

Lord Wharncliffe said, the power of ininducing them so to direct.

Parliament. He should take the sense of The Duke of Richmond suggested, that the House upon the Resolution. It was where the opposition was vexatious, the certainly wrong to do it by means of a parties opposing should be made to bear Standing Order. . the costs.

Lord Ashburton took the same view of The Earl of Wicklow said, that in all or the subject. dinary suits the person who lost was made The Earl of Wicklow said, the Resolution 10 pay costs; and it certainly appeared as it stood would interfere with the right rather absurd to him that in these suits of petitioning. If a petition was presented those who were in the right, if they and referred to a Committee, the poorest happened to be promoters of the Bill, man must be prepared with his recognishould have to bear costs.

Were their Lordships ready to Lord Brougham explained that, in or- place such a bar against the right of petidinary cases where an action was brought, tioning? it was presumed that the defendant held Lord Brougham said, the Resolution some property belonging to the plaintiff. could never injure any man whose property If a verdict were found for the plaintiff, was affected by a railway. It was monhe bad, for a certain time, been kept out of strous to say that the opposition of a man that which belonged to him; and therefore against his property being taken away the defendant was saddled with all costs. without bis consent, could be frivolous. In this case the fact was different, for Noble Lords were running away with a parties appearing to contest any of these false idea. If this Resolution were to be Bills were about to have their property put off day after day, he should wash his taken from them whether they would or hands of it. He had reported the Resono; and for that reason he thought that, lution from the Committee, which was even if unsuccessful, the House or Com unanimous, and the House were mittees should have the discretion of about to reject it, and pass a Bill. They directing the expenses to be paid by the might do so, and send iheir Bill down to party promoting the Bill.

the other House, and then (as had been Lord Monteagle supported the Resolu- done with some of the best Bills) a Mition. As powerful companies would, in the nister might get up and say, "I have progress of railroads, become opponents

considered this matter, and I think there of Bills, unless security were taken against is not time to pass the Bill this Session.” undue opposition to, as well as undue

And men's property would be taken away

promotion of, railways, injustice would be without the possibility of getting the done. He proposed that recognizances costs of resistance. He would, however,

defer the Resolution till Monday. should be taken on both sides.

Lord Whurncliffe said, the House had Lord Brougham altered the Resolution

no right to exercise the power, if they had conformably to this suggestion.

it, of requiring every person coming there Lord Redesdale objected to the requir- against a Bill to give recognizances. No ing recognizances, which would operate alteration could reconcile him to the Reto the exclusion of the poor man.

solution. Lord Brougham said, that in the case Lord Brougham : That seals the fate of of a poor man, recognizances, to whatever the Resolution. If Her Majesty's Goamount, would, in effect, be merely no. vernment oppose the Resolution, I, as an minal.

individual, must submit. The Duke of Richmond said, well The Lord Chancellor : I do not consider known that in this city there was a cer- this to be a question of the Government's. tain class of low attorneys, irho had no Lord Wharncliffe : I speak as a Memcharacier 10 lose, who could get up ber of the House of Lords. opposition to Bills, and that was what be Lord Brougham : The Resolution does wished to guard against. He believed not interfere with the right of petition ; that by and by the great body of the pro- even the Amendment dues not interfere ple would not be satisfied unle:s they had with that right. It does not prevent the


it was


presentation of petitions, but the granting Lord Brougham was repeating several of the prayer of the petition. The right of his arguments in explanation, as well of petition is not the right to have the as in support of the Resolution, when prayer of the petition granted, but to have The Earl of Devon made an observation it received and read.

which was not distinctly beard, relative Lord Portman thought that all this to the number of times the noble and matter should be regulated by Act of Par- learned Lord had spoken in the course of liament. The proper way was to send a the evening. Bill for the consideration of the other Lord Brougham continued, and said he House, or to receive a Bill from that should speak in that House as often as he House for their Lordships' consideration. pleased, without considering whether it There was a reference in the poble and was pleasing to the noble Lord or otherlearned Lord's Resolution to a Standing wise. If the noble Lord did not like his Order, which was made effectual by an speeches, he was not compelled to listen Act of Parliament brought in by Lord to them, and he certainly did not care for

: Eldon, who must have considered it ne- the noble Lord's attention. When the cessary to have an Act of Parliament 10 noble Lord sat at that Table he was comtax costs. It was the first time it was pelled to listen to him, but he was not ever proposed by a Standing Order to compelled now; and, therefore, if the give costs in their legislative proceedings. noble Lord did not wish to do so he had He thought the House would be wise is the means of relieving himself. He (Lord they adopted the view of the President of Brougham) did not object to listen to the the Council, and negatived the Resolu- noble Lord; but when he did so, instead tion.

of interrupting bim, he should adopt those Lord Brougham said, he had never means and relieve himsell. heard so many mistakes in any one speech The Earl of Devon : My Lords, I shall as in that which the noble Lord who had not comment upon the good taste and the just sat down had thought proper to personal feeling which have prompted the make.

noble Lord to make the observations which The Earl of Devon objected to the Re- your Lordships have just heard. I do not solution in toto. It held out to the people know whether it be a well-merited obserthis :—“We must receive your petitions,

vation ; but as the noble and learned Lord but we will put such a clog upon the right has now avowedly and openly put himas will make it nugatory." He would not self in a position of defiance of this House, be a party to such a Resolution.

it becomes necessary to consider what are The Lord Chancellor said, his noble the rules and orders of the House upon and learned Friend did not press the Re. this subject ; and I tell the noble and solution now; he wished 10' withdraw it, learned Lord that, although he tells us in and to bring it forward amended on Mon the strong language he is accustomed to day.

use, that he will speak in this House as Lord Wharncliffe : The noble and often as he likes, when he does again learned Lord has no right to withdraw the speak twice or thrice on the same quesResolution without the consent of your tion, contrary to the rules of this House, Lordships.

I shall call upon your Lordships to vindiThe Marquess of Lansdowne : Then 1cate and enforce these rules. move that my noble and learned Friend Lord Brougham : I hope there will be have leave to withdraw the Resolution. I equitable justice extended to all, on both move this without giving any expression sides of the House. I never rise frequently of opinion. The only modes of proceed- unless other noble Lords do so. ing are by Resolution or by Act of Parlia- The further debate thereon, adjourned ment, and the best course is, to allow my to Monday. noble and learned Friend to consider be

House adjourned. tween this and Monday whether it should be by Resolution or by Bill.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, The Lord Chancellor observed, that it bad been stated that the House of Com.

Friday, July 11, 1945. mons were disposed to concur in the Re-Minutes.] New Member Sworn. For West Suffolk, solution; if so, they would agree to a

Philip Bennett, Jun., Esq.

Bills. Public.-10. Turnpike Roads (Scotland); Games Bill.

and Wagers; Jurors' Books (Ireland); Bail in Error;



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Tumpike Acts Continuance ; Loan Societies ; Highway the Charter-house, had been detained in a Rates ; Militia Ballots Suspension; Stock in Trade.

private lunatic assylum for nine years, al29. Church Building Act Amendment; Grand Jury Presentments (Dublin); Spirits (Ireland); Excise Duties on ihough he had certificates of four surgeons Spirits (Channel Islands); Unclaimed Stock and Divi- that he was of sound mind, and not a proReported.—Commons Inclosure ; Drainage of Lands; Lu. per person to be so confined. natic Asylums (Ireland); Merchant Scamen.

Lord Ashley sincerely hoped the hon. 3” and passed :-- Bankruptcy Declaration.

Member for Finsbury, now that he stated Private. -1° North Walsham School Estate, 20. Rothwell Gaol.

the object he had in view in opposing the Reported.--Gravesend and Rochester Railway.

Bill, would allow the House 10 go through 3o. and passed :-Guildford, Chichester, and Portsmouth

the preliminary forms, so that the measure Railway ; Brighton and Chichester Railway (Portsmouth Extension); Direct London and Portsmouth Railway;

might be fully and dispassionately conLady's Island and Tacumshin Embankment.

sidered and discussed in Committee. He Petitions PRESENTED. By Mr. Balfour, from Provost: also hoped that nothing which might fall

and others, of Haddington, in favour of Universities (Scotland) Bill.-—-By Mr. S. Wortley, from Parramatta, from the hon. Gentleman or any other hon. for Repeal of certain Acts relating to the Colony of New Member would tempt him to infringe the South Wales.-By Mr. Borthwick, from Churwell, for Inquiry into the Anatomy Act.—By Mr. Heathcote, from rules of the House, or induce him to reply several places, in favour of the Ten Hours System in Fac- in any way that exhibited aught in the tories. --By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Henry Walker,

nature of irritation or ill-feeling. When Chemist, 59 St. John Street, for Inquiry into the Treatment of Lunatics, etc.–From Governors of York Lunatic he heard the hon. Gentleman say that the Asylum, for Alteration of Lunatics Bill.--By Mr. Bun Commissioners, in the discharge of their bury, from Apothecaries of Carlow, for Alteration of duties, and particularly in their examinaPhysic and Surgery Bill.-By Mr. Balfour, from Provost, and others, of Haddington, for Postponement of Poor tions, bad conducied themselves with arLaw Amendment (Scotland) Bill.–By Sir J. V. Buller, rogance and intolerance, he must take from David Phillips, and Jaspar Parrott, for Investigating leave to say that the hon. Member had Truth of Evidence of J. Parrott, before the Poor Law Medical Relief Committee (1844).

been most grievously misinformed by those

who had de such a statement to him. Lunatics.] Lord Ashley moved the He would ask him to consult his own heart Order of ibe Day for the House to go into and his own feelings, and if in his heart Committee on the Lunatics' Bill.

and his feelings he found that it would be Mr. 7'. Duncombe deprecated the further possible for him, in so solemn an inquiry progress of the Bill at so late a period of -an inquiry of so delicate a nature, and ihe Session. His objection to the prin affecting, as it did, the happiness of huciple of the Bill was so great, that he man beings - to behave with arrogance would move its postponement until the and intolerance, then he (Lord Ashley) next Session.

would admit that his brother CommisSir J. Graham, addressing the House, sioners and himself were open to the said, that the Government had in charge. But he would undertake to prove tended to bring in a Bill similar to that to the House that nothing could be more before the House; but knowing the great inaccurate than such a charge. It was interest which bis noble Friend (Lord quite true that the hon. Gentleman gave Ashley) had taken in the subject, and his bim notice that it was his intention to perfect acquaintance with it, they had bring under the consideration of the House gladly handed over the matter to his the case of Captain Digby. He had stated charge, but they did not for an instant to him in private that if it were necessary wish to get rid of the responsibility for the Commissioners to be put upon their themselves; on the contrary, the Go- defence, and to show their reasons why vernment took upon themselves the whole they could not authorize the liberation of responsibility of the measure, which they that party, he feared, from the documents feli would be of great public benefit. He which would be produced, that the case hoped the House would give its sanction would issue in a painful result. He had to a measure of so much importance, even hoped that he should not have to weary the although it had been unavoidably delayed House by any further statements; and he to a late period of the Session.

felt thai he was acting with exceeding Order of the Day read.

boldness when he brought forward this Lord Ashley moved, “that the Speaker measure. He had hoped that his preli

" do now leave the chair.”

minary observations would have been sufMr. T. Duncombe said, he had io pre-ficient ; but since it was the will of the sent a petition complaining that a man, House that he should make a further comnamed William White, a poor brother of Imunication on this maller, he would re

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quest them to receive the explanation he cal men were required; and these gentlewas now about to offer. It would be ne- men were to be members of one of the cessary, in the first place, that he should three authorized medical bodies. These describe the constitution of the Commis- visits must have been paid to the alsion, and retrace the history of legislation leged lunatic within a period of not more upon this subject. In 1828, Mr. Gordon, than seven clear days before bis ad. then a Member of this House, introduced mission into a licensed house. Every a Bill which afterwards became the Act licensed house was to be visited at least under which the operations of the Com- four times in the year (many of them not mission were conducted, and was, in fact, having been visited at all under the old the law under which their operations were law), and in practice now some of them conducted up to the present time. If the were visited oftener. A power was also House would allow him, he would give a given for discharging any patient who short view of the state of the law by which might, after due medical investigation of private asylums were regulated previously the case, be considered of sound mind. io 1828, in order ibat they might see how Licenses could be granted on any of the they had gone on progressively improving quarterly boards; and certificates were in their legislation, and how they might necessary for the admission of pauper lucontinue to go on progressively improving; natics, as well as returns of them regularly for this was a difficult and delicate ques. made, and lists of them kept, so that each tion, and no step could be taken without pauper was seen, and, when requisite, deliberation, and every such step must be examined on each visit of the Commisjustified by past experience. Previously sioners. Plans of all houses were required, to 1828 private asylums were regulated and also of such alterations as might, from by the Act of Parliament passed in the time to time, be made therein ; and re14th year of George III. That was a most turns of patients in single houses under important Act, but very defective. There certain well-guarded provisions for insurwas no power contained in it for punishing ing secrecy, were to be annually made to the an offence, not even for revoking or re- clerk. Then, each house, containing more fusing a license. There was a great laxity than a hundred patients, was to have a rein the signature of certificates, one only sident medical officer; and where the numbeing deemed sufficient, and that one ber was less than a hundred, was to be vimight be and often was signed by a per- sited by a medical person twice a week. Mr. son not duly qualified, or the proprietor of Gordon's Act was passed for three years, the madhouse (in his medical capacity), and the Commission was appointed for one to which the alleged lunatic was consigned. year, to be renewed annually. That ComHouses licensed under that Act were not mission consisted of several unpaid Memrequired to be visited more than once a bers, and five physicians, and it was proyear. There was no power under the Act vided that these five physicians should be to discharge any patient who might prove paid at the rate of one guinea an hour for to be of sound mind. Licenses could be their attendance, with power to carry into granted only on one day in the year. effect the new Act within the metropolitan Pauper lunatics were sent to the mad. districi. This Act and Commission were house and admitted without medical cer- renewed in 1832, and two barristers were tificates, and no return of pauper patients added on the same terms. About 1834, was ever made to the Board. No plans after having been a member of the Comwere required of houses previously to the mission, he (Lord Ashley) became the granting of licenses; no returns of the chairman of the Commission, which duty cases of lunatics kept singly in houses for he had discharged up to the present time. gain ; and, moreover, no visits of medical Now, this Act was renewed periodically persons to the patients. That, in fact, from three years to three years, until the was the state of the law from 1777 down year 1842, when his noble Friend the to 1828, when Mr. Gordon introduced a Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Bill which remedied these defects. That (Lord G. Somerset) brought in a Bill for Act gave power to the Board to revoke or three years, the object of which was greatly refuse a license. Sundry offences were to extend the operation of the metropospecified in the Act, not specified in the litan Commissioners. Let the House see old Act, which might be punished as mis. how that Act extended the duties devolved demeanors. Separate visits by two medi. upon these Commissioners. It extended


their duties over the whole surface of Eng- , four times in the course of a year. So land and Wales, instead of confining them that in the whole, 166 houses, spread over to the metropolitan district add a radius a large surface, were to be visited by the of seven miles round it, and directed that Commissioners, some of them once, others all asylums licensed by the justices should twice, and some four times a year. The be visited twice a year by iwo Commis- result of these investigations was a volusioners (a physician and a barrister), who minous Report from the Commissioners, were to examine the licenses and certifi- , which was presented to the House towards cates, and inquire and report as to re- the close of the last Session of Parliament; straint, classification, occupation, and and he very much feared that the size of amusements. They were also to report that Report, although it was published in on the condition of paupers on admission, the most inviting form, had deterred many diet, and so forth. They were bound to hon. Members from perusing it; because make entries as to particular patients in if the House of Commons had read the patients' book, and empowered to liberate Report, there would have been very little patients in provincial asylums after two hesitation manifested with regard to the visits. The Act likewise directed a phy- two Bills which he had had the honour of sician and barrister (members of the Com- introducing. Nor did he think that he mission) to visit couniy asylums once a should now have been called on to weary year, and make inquiries and reports simi- the House by these preliminary remarks. lar to those which he had already speci. Well, upon the presentation of that Refied. Then, for the purpose of discharging port, he proposed a motion for an Address any increase in their duties, the number to the Crown, praying Her Majesty to take of physicians had been augmented to it into Her serious consideration. A disseven, and of barristers to four. And it cussion arose in the House, and Her Mawas also provided by the Act that the jesty's Government stated that they were Commissioners should receive at the rate so impressed with the necessity of legisof five guineas a day during the perform-lation upon the subject, that they proance of their duties in the provinces. mised that a Bill should be introduced in Such were the provisions of the Act pass the succeeding Session of Parliament, in ed in the fifth and sixth of Her present consequence of which he (Lord Ashley) Majesty's reign; and immediately after its withdrew his notice. His right hon. enactment the Commissioners entered Friend (Sir James Graham) had already upon their enlarged duties. Now, let the explained to the House why it was that House observe what were the duties which he was entrusted with the introduction of devolved upon the Commissioners. The the iwo very important Bills before the result of the passing of that Act was, that House. His right hon. Friend was pleased in each year the establishments to be to think that, as he had served so long on visited by them were seventeen county the Commission, and performed the reasylumns, or asylums brought within the sponsible and arduous duties of its chairscope of the 9th Geo. JV. (the Act of man, he was the proper person to present 1828), being twelve county asylums, and these measures to the notice of the House. five county and subscription asylums; He undertook the task, because he thought eleven asylums of a mixed character, main. it to be his duty so to do when asked by tained parily by subscription, and partly the Minister of ihe Crown, knowing at the by income from charitable foundations ; same time how much that Minister was and two military and naval hospitals. overwhelmed by the pressure of public These would be visited once a year. business, and knowing also the great zeal Ninety-nine houses licensed by justices in and diligence which bis right hon. Friend session, fifty-nine of them receiving pri- brought to bear in discharging the imvate patients only, and the remaining forty portant duties that devolved upon him. paupers and private patients, would be vi- The House might be assured that it was sited twice a year. Then, in the metro- not from an overweening opinion of his politan district, there were thirty-seven own competency or ability that be (Lord houses licensed by the metropolitan Com- Ashley) had complied with the right hon. missioners, thirty-three of which received Baronet's request. Quite the reverse. He private patients only, and the remainder shrunk from the lask-not that he shrunk (four large establishments) both pauper and from the labour, or entertained a fear as private patients. These would be visited to the reception which the Bills would

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