TELLERS.

W.

TELLERS.

a

Thesiger, Sir F.

Warburton, H. rest and to the seamen themselves belongTowneley, J.

Wawn, J.T.

ing to the Port of Liverpool and other Trench, Sir F. W.

Wellesley, Lord C. Trevor, hon. G, R. Williams, w.

great ports extensively concerned in the Trollope, Sir J. Wortley, hon. J.S.

Foreign and Colonial trade, as well as Tufnell, H. Wortley, hon. J.S.

many others; and because it would sacriTyrell, Sir J. T. Yorke, II. R.

fice their interests to those of minor and Vernon, G, H.

less well managed ports; and because by Vivian, J. E.

amalgamation of the funds, the rates of Wakiey, T. Young, J.

pension for merchant seamen would be reWalsh, Sir J. B. Baring, H.

duced to one scanty rate of uniform inadeList of the Noes.

quacy.

This Bill would abolish local

funds; deprive first-rate ports and many Adderly, C. B, Henley, J. W.

others, of the superior advantages which Archdall, Capt. M. Hornby, J.

they now possessed in an exclusive manageArkwright, G.

Kemble, H.
Bramsion,
Lowther, hon. Col.

ment of their own funds, and take from them Broadley, H. O'Brien, W.S.

the means and the power of providing for Buck, L. W. O'Connell, M.J.

the widows and children of seamen. But Buller, Sir J. Y. Rashleigh, W. very imperfectly should they discharge Carew, W. H. P. Richards, R.

their duty to the mercantile marine of this Clive, Visct.

Sibthorp, Col. country, the true basis of its commercial and Dickinson, F. H. Spooner, R.

naval power, if they did not devise some Duncombe, hon. O. Waddington, H. S.

more comprehensive measure, by which a Ebrington, Visct.

fund might be formed, sufficient to provide Estcourt, T. G. B. Fitzmaurice, hon. W. Inglis, Sir R. II,

for the relief and support of merchant Fuller, A. E. Hope, A. seamen, their widows and children,

upon

an adequate scale, worthy the munificence Bill read a third time and passed.

of this country; to raise generally the

condition of British merchant seamen, and MERCHANT SEAmen's Fund.] Order hold out additional inducements to them to of the Day for receiving the Report of the remain in the service of their own country, Merchant Seamen's Fund Bill in order to instead of wasting their youth and their be postponed.

strength under the flag of Foreign States, Sir Howard Douglas said, as the Mover returning only when worn out, to seek in of the Resolution embodied in the Report their own land, provision for old age,

from for the postponement of this Bill, he would, funds too scanty for the relief and support with the permission of the House, say a of those who devoted their use and strength few words in reply to the reference made to the service of the British marine. Such to him. The Resolution which he pro- I a comprehensive measure might, he (Sir posed was seconded by his hon. Friend the H. Douglas) thought, be devised. He was Member for London (Mr. Lyall), and vig- not prepared to indicate the sources from orously supported by another hon. Mem- which its means might be drawn, nor to ber, now no more, whose untimely death this detail the process or machinery by which House must lament, his Friends mourn, and such a measure might be carried out. This the mercantile marine of this country might | however, he would say, that he relied on justly deplore. So sustained, the Resolution the public spirit and liberality of that great was agreed to by a large majority; and he shipping and trading community, of which (Sir Howard Douglas) hoped that Her Ma- he had the honour to be one of the Rejesty's Government would give effect to that presentatives, that they would cordially Resolution, by moving the postponement and liberally co-operate with the shipof this Bill till the next Session of Parlia- owners of the United Kingdom, genement. Having been a member of the rally, with a view to devise some compreMerchant Seamen's Fund Committees of hensive measure that might really be ade. the last and the present Session, he had quate to the great and important objects in ample means and opportunities of con- view, deserving the favourable consideration sidering, deeply, the important subject of of Her Majesty's Government, and which forming a Merchant Seamen's Fund, ade. he hoped would be met by the liberality quate to the wants and necessities of the of that House, as he was sure it would mercantile marine. He objected to the with the universal approbation of the present Bill, because it was, in principle, country. That he had not overrated the unjust, and injurious to the shipping inte- public spirit and liberality of that great

m

way.

rmouth and Work

Wodehouse's).

shipping community with which he had z". and passed :-Documentary Evidence; Real Property

(Lord Chancellor); Seal Office Abolition. the honour to be connected, he would re

Private.-14. Brighton and Chichester Railway (Portsquest the permission of the House to read mouth Extension); Guildford, Chichester, and Portsa passage from the Report of the pro- mouth Railway; Glasgow, Barrhead, and Neilston Dis

rect Railway ; Direct London and Portsmouth Railceedings of a Meeting of the Committee of the Shipowners' Association 22. Preston and Wyre Railway; Runcorn and Preston of Liverpool, expressly assembled to take Brook Railway; Norwich and Brandon Railway (Diss

and Dereham Branches); Glasgow Junction Railway; into consideration the course which he (Sir

Bermondsey Improvement ; Londonderry and Coleraine Howard Douglas) had taken with respect Railway. to this Bill, and with reference to the

Reported.—Middlesbro' and Redcar Railway; Waterford

and Limerick Railway; Dublin and Drogheda Railway : Motion of which the hon. Member for

Newry and Enniskillen Railway; North Union and South Shields had given notice, to recom- Ribble Navigation Branch Railway; Irish Great Western mit that Bill. That meeting came unani. Railway (Dublin to Galway) ; Cromford Canal; Rever

sionary Interest Society. mously to the following resolution :

za and passed :-Cork and Bandon Railway; Lynn and “This Committee, therefore, earnestly re- Dereham Railway ; Glossop Gas; Great Southern and quest Sir Howard Douglas to persevere in his

Western Railway (Ireland); Coc

ington Railway; North Walsham School Estate (Lord intention to meet Mr. Wawn's proposal by a direct negative, authorizing Sir Howard, at PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Stockholders and others of the same time, to assure Her Majesty's Go. the Colony, residing at Maneroo, for Alteration of Law vernment of the entire readiness and anxious relating to Territorial Revenue and Disposal of Land wish of this Committee, to concur in any well

(New South Wales). matured and comprehensive proposal, for ameliorating the condition of the seaman ; tend- Privilege.] The Lord Chancellor ing, while in health and strength, to improve laid upon the Table the Report from the his condition, and to retain him in the service Committee appointed to search for Preof his own country, and to increase the procedenis in reference to the petition of vision made for him when old or disabled- Thomas Baker for Protection. Read, and objects which this Committee are prepared to ordered to lie on the Table; and to be recommend to the shipowners at large, even at the price of submitting to further laxation printed. themselves."

The Duke of Richmond would now He (Sir Howard Douglas) had read this bar, to deliver in the declaration he had

move that Thomas Baker be called to the resolution to the House with pride and

received. satisfaction; and in the admirable terms in which it was expressed, he would appeal to he would recommend : The Report was of

The Lord Chancellor stated the course the shipowners of the United Kingdom generally, to meet cordially the invitation

some length, and it would be some time which this resolution held out, and would before it could be printed, and in the earnestly recommend to the favourable

hands of their Lordships. He would consideration of Her Majesty's Government merely now call the petitioner before them to meet, in that spirit, any such practicable to identify the transaction; after which and comprehensive proposition as the great the plaintiff and his attorney, if their body of the shipping interest of the United names could be ascertained, should be Kingdom might be prepared to suggest, on ordered to attend on Monday. By that a future occasion, with a view to the adop- time the Report would be printed, and tion of such a comprehensive measure as

before any other step, such as calling that indicated in the Report now under them to the bar, was adopted, there might consideration, in lieu of proceeding with be a discussion; and those noble Lords this Bill.

who dissented from the course proposed Sir G. Clerk regretted the necessity for might state their objections. postponement, but hoped that during the Lord Campbell entirely approved of the recess a more comprehensive measure might course proposed by his noble and learned be devised.

Friend. Further consideration of the Report Lord Radnor had no objection to the postponed till next Session.

course, except that when the petition was House adjourned at two o'clock. presented, a Committee had been ap

pointed to search for precedents; and HOUSE OF LORDS, now, when the Report had only been Friday, July 11, 1845.

handed in, and not printed, they were

I called upon to take a step. MINUTES.)

The Lord Chancellor did not consider

:

BILLS. Public.-14. Field Gardens. 2. Law of Defamation and Libel Act Amendment.

a

attor

this a step by which the House would Do you know the names of the plaintiff's commit itself.

solicitors ?-Messrs. Ward and Harbin, Lord Brougham did not object to call

What solicitors do you employ?-Messrs. ing in the petitioner, which was a very

Lyons, Barnes, and Ellis.

Are they in attendance ?-Mr. Barnes is. different mailer from calling the plaintiff and his allorney before them.

Then Mr. Barnes was called in, and exThomas Baker was then called in, and amined by his Lordship. examined by the LORD CHANCELLOR. Did you receive a declaration of the plain

tiff in this suit?- No; it was filed by the Were you examined before a Committee of this House in the month of April of last year? plaintiff's attorney, and taken out by my -Yes. What was that Committee?-A Committee

Is that a copy ?- That is the original,

Who is the plaintiff's attorney?- Mr. Peter to inquire into the Gaming Laws.

Tait Harbin. Were you aware that that Committee was appointed to inquire into the laws affecting it was filed ?-Notice was served on the de.

By Lord BROUGHAN.—How did you know gaming ?-Yes.

fendant. Did you give evidence before that Com

By Lord CAMPBELL.--With a notice to miltee? - I did.

plead?-Yes. Have you since been served with a declaration in any suit, or with a copy ? - I received days. The declaration was filed on the 7th

By Lord BROUGHAM.- What notice?- Eight one, which is now in the hands of

my of July. neys. Is your attorney in attendance?–Mr. Barnes where the plaintiff's attorney lives? -The ad

By the LORD CHANCELLOR.- Do you know is here.

dress on the back of the writ is 16, Clement's Will you ask him for the declaration? Is

Inn. that the declaration ?- Mr. Barnes informs me it is the copy of one filed against me in the Thomas Baker was recalled, and examined Court of Queen's Bench.

by the LORD CHANCELLOR. llave you read it?-It has been read to nie by the clerk of Mr. Lyons.

Do you know where the plaintiff lives? Does the statement in the declaration cor- Yes, my Lord, in Leicester Square. respond with the language used by you before

By Lord BroucHAN.- What number?—16. the Committee ?-It don't make use of the

What sort of a shop does he keep? -A

tobacconist's. whole language made us of before the Com. mittee.

Thomas Baker and the other parties in By Lord BROUGIAM.—Do you find any

of

attendance were then ordered to with your evidence before that Committee made

draw. use of ?- Some of it.

The Lord Chancellor then moved, that By the LORD CHANCELLOR. - In the declaration do you find those words of yours Peter Taite Harbin and John Harlow do charged ?-Yes.

attend their Lordships' House on Monday Do the words charged correspond with part next. of the evidence given by you before the Com- Lord Brougham would not at this stage mittee ?-Yes.

of the proceeding take an objection to Did you ever before any other Committee

the course suggested, which, however, make precisely the same statement as is contained there?-Not precisely the same.

was not the same matter of course as that By Lord BROUGIAM.- -Did you make any

of calling the petitioner before them. He thing like the same statement?—Not with re- purposely abstained from raising the ques.

tion at that monient; and he trusted that Not with respect to Mr. Harlow ?-No.

Those who agreed with his would also Never?-Never.

abstain ; and he would take such objection By the LORD CHANCELLOR.–Did

you

make any statement with regard to him except that

as he might be advised, if any further proto which you were sworn, and before a Com ceeding should be urged against the plainmittee of the House ?- Never.

tiff, or if he should be called to the bar. Is that a copy of the declaration which was The present, however, was a material step, delivered ?-Yes.

and he should content himself with proBy Lord BROUGHAM.-Did you say any testing against it. thing with respect to Mr. Harlow except be

The Lord Chancellor also reserved his fore this Committee ? -No. By Lord CAMPBELL.-Have you any

doubt

opinion, and upon the same grounds. that this action is brought for the evidence Their Lordships could not be properly pregiven by you ?-I believe it is solely brought pared to discuss this question will the Refor that evidence.

port of the Committee should be printed ; VOL. LXXXII.

O

spect to him.

Third 2
Series

but for the purpose of saving time, he plaintiff who had filed this declaration proposed thai the parties should be or- would rather find himself in a difficulty. dered to attend.

Motion agreed to. The Marquess of Clanricarde had not had the good fortune of attending the RAILWAYS AND THE BOARD OF Committee, as he had been obliged to TRADE.] The Earl of Dalhousie laid attend a Railroad Committee; but it now upon the Table of the House a Minute of appeared that no inconvenience would the Lords of the Committee of Privy have been felt if the House had proceeded | Council for Trade, dated the 10th day of Jast night in the straightforward course July, 1845, relative to the constitution he had suggested. The same course they and mode of proceedings of the Railway were now about to take could have been Department of the Board of Trade. As taken yesterday, and the House might the subject was one of considerable im. have taken it whether they bad found a portance, he felt himself called on to state precedent or not. It was a gratification shortly, the alteration which it was into him, as he had entered a Protest on the tended to make, and the grounds upon Journals against the step taken yesterday, which they proceeded. Their Lordships that the opinion he had recorded had now would recollect that, at the commencemet with unanimous approval.

ment of the last Session, a Commitlee Motion agreed to, and

had been appointed by the other House The Lord Chancellor moved that the for considering the subject of Railway Lords be summoned.

Legislation generally. That Committee Lord Campbell was so delighted at the sat for many months, and made a very turn the mailer had taken, that he would full Report on various matters connected not charge their Lordships with inconsis- with railways. Upon one point in partency, though they were no doubt revers- ticular, it reported very fully-viz., the ing their decision of last night.

degree of supervision which ihe Govern. Lord Stanley said, there was this mate- ment ought to exercise over schemes berial difference in the two courses; last fore they were brought under the considnight it was moved that the parties be eration of Parliament. That Report was summoned to the bar, when they had not laid before the House, and adopted, and determined what to do; whereas now they the Government proceeded to carry into had the advantage of precedents.

effect its recommendations.

It had now After a few words from Lord Brougham, become necessary for the Government to

The Duke of Wellington said, the great consider what provisions should be made difference in the position of the House for the future conducting of railway that evening, and the position last even- schemes. They had found that the ciring, was this :-a petition was presented cumstances connected with the subject by the noble Duke sitting on the cross- differed materially from those which exbenches yesterday evening : he (the Duke isted at the beginning of last Session. of Wellington) for one, believed every Having maturely considered the question, word contained in that petition : but they and having due regard to the constilu. were in a different position that night as a tion and operations of the Committee of House of Parliament. He last night be the House of Commons, and to the feellieved in the statements of the petition, as ing which had been evinced by Parliathe noble Duke had vouched for them ; ment in the course of the present Session, but that night they had evidence before the Government had come to the concluthem on oath, that this man had given sion, that the Board of Trade should not, evidence before the Committee; that the in future, prepare or submit to Parliament evidence was the same as the words con- any Report upon the merits of railway tained in the declaration, and that he had projects. But in relinquishing this func

. never stated anything respecting these tion of reporting upon the merits of matters anywhere else. Therefore this schemes, previously to their being considdeclaration must have reference to the ered by Parliament, their Lordships must evidence given before a Committee of not be induced to consider that the Board their Lordships' House, and to nothing had failed in the object for which it had else. That was the difference of the been instituted. He had seen it stated situation in which they stood that night; as a curious fact — and curious it, no and he thought it would turn out that the doubt, would be if true that only one

decision of the Board of Trade had been either House to fiel, under the remodelled approved of by the House of Commons, form of procedure, that there could be any and that that one decision had been re. invasion of their powers in deciding upon versed by the House of Lords. But what such matters. were the real facts of the case? The Rail- Lord Brougham thanked the noble Earl way Department of the Board of Trade for his very fair and candid statement. had reported on 247 schemes, comprising The noble Earl said that a new arrangenearly 8,000 miles of railway; of these ment had been made. Il might well be 58 had been withdrawn, and 19 had failed called a new arrangement.

It was just upon the Standing Orders, leaving 160, such an arrangement as took place in the which had been read a second time in the body natural, when it was consigned to its House of Commons. Of these 160, nine parent earth, and suffered decomposition sull remained undecided, making the in the course of nature. He condemned number, actually decided on, 151; and the system of delay which was pursued in of these 151 schemes decided on both by Committees by the opponents of different the Board of Trade and the House of Bills for the purpose of insuring their deCommons, there were only six in which the feat; and particularly instanced the case of House of Commons had directly reversed the London and York Bill, which had the opinion of the Board of Trade, which now been about fourteen weeks in Comsix schemes were involved in what was mittee. He had always been opposed to termed the gauge case, and only nine other the appointment of the Board of Trade cases in which the opinion of the Board Committee, considering that their proof Trade had not been confirmed, owing ceedings were calculated to encourage in the mean time to a change of circum- gambling, and being convio ced that they stances, or to a compromise between the could not have the materials before them contending parties; so that, out of 151 which would enable them to come to a schemes which the House of Commons correct conclusion. He, however, could had decided upon, only 15 had been re- not see any objection to the plan now jected, while 123 of the decisions of the proposed. Board of Trade bad been absolutely con- Report to be printed. firmed. He thought he was, therefore, entitled to say that the Board of Trade had not RAILWAY AND OTHER Bills.] Lord failed in discovering the truth, and that Brougham then asked their Lordships if it their Reports were not to be considered as was their intention to proceed with the waste paper. The Minute of last year pro- Adjourned Debate on the following Resoposed that a distinct Committee of the Board lution, as amended, which, he thought, of Trade should be appointed for railway would put a stop to a good deal of hardbusiness; but it was now intended to dis- ship and oppression, viz. :continue that Committee, and allow the “ That where any Party or Parties have apbusiness to be carried on by the ordinary peared and contested any such Bills at the Committee. The same preliminary steps Bar or in the Committees of the House, it on the part of railway companies which shall be lawful for the flouse or Committees, were now required, such as depositing

if in their Discretion they shall think fit, to with the Board of Trade a copy of the incurred in the Proceedings before this House

direct the Expences of such Party or Parties plan and a statement of the objects of the

or its Committee to be paid by the opposite Bill, would continue to be required. They Party promoting the Bill; the amount of such would also be expected to deliver a copy | Expences to be ascertained and certified by the of the Bill when prepared ; and if, upon Clerk of the Parliaments or Clerk-Assistant, by the examination of its provisions, it should like Taxation and in the same Manner and appear to the Board of Trade to be de- upon the same Terms in all respects, as Costs on sirable, on public grounds, 10 direct the Appeals and Writs of Error are directed to be attention of Parliament to the nature of of this House, of the 3rd of April 1835 No.215;

ascertained and certified by the Standing Order those provisions, the Board of Trade would and that the Petitioners for any such Bill, or be at liberty to submit to Parliament a some of them, as shall be approved by the Clerk

the subject; but in no case to of the Parliaments, shall, before the same is pronounce any opinion upon the merits of read a Second T'ime, give Security to the said The Bill. That was a considerable change | Queen, of the Penalty of 5,000!., conditioned to

Clerk, by Recognizance to be entered into to The from the former system ; and he ventured

pay to think that it would be impossible for I House or the Committee to be paid to any Party

all Erpences which may be ordered by the

Report upon