Colonial Office had to contend with in the cases of Colonies founded by unauthorized settlers. Most of the difficulties of New Zealand had arisen from that cause, and from the character of many of the original settlers in New Zealand, comprehending, as they did, some of the worst portion of the population of Australia and of this country. He re adopt the Report of the New Zealand Committee; but still the opinion of that body was entitled to very considerable weight, when it was recollected that it had been appointed with the approval and concurrence of the Colonial Office. He did not want to go beyond the fact that the Report of the Committee had been generally adverse to the system pursued by the Colonial Office in the administration of New Zealand; and the members of the Committee so far had been amply supported by events which had occurred in the Colony itself. But he entirely protested against the doctrine that the finding fault, even by inference, with the management of New Zealand, was to suggest that there had been any bad faith or double the Treaty of Waitangi, towards the natives on the other. Had we felt ourselves at liberty to depart from the strictest fulfilment of the terms of that Treaty, we should have met but little difficulty; and in proof of the fact, our embarrassments have arisen mainly from our feeling that, however desirable and important it is to promote the colonization of New Zealand, yet that object would be very dearly pur-peated that he did not by any means fully chased were it to be obtained by the slightest reflection on the good faith of this country, or by any liability to the imputation that we wished to shrink from an engagement we entered into with the natives-an engagement which I think the natives perfectly understand, the full importance of which I think they are as deeply impressed with as we can be-and an engagement which we have always felt that the Government of this country were bound to adhere to in its fullest integrity. I assure your Lordships that we have strictly, in every instruction we have issued (and the Papers upon the Table prove the fact), insisted on the strict fulfilment of the spirit and the letter of the Treaty of Waitangi. Our instructions upon that point have been uni-dealing on the part of the Colonial Office. form. They were given to Captain Fitzroy, and whatever instructions may have been since despatched to his successor, they have in this respect remained unaltered. We have told him-our declarations to the effect have been reiterated-that while he should seek in every possible mode to promote the amicable settlement of the affairs of the New Zealand Company, that he should always consider it to be the paramount duty devolved upon him, specially, and scrupulously, and religiously to fulfil our solemn engagements with the natives of New Zealand. Any such charge was as much unsupported by proof as it was contradicted by the character of the noble Lord at the head of that branch of the public service. Still, however, a more melancholy instance of mismanagement than that displayed in the local government of New Zealand, never was exhibited in the colonial administration of any country; and he was convinced that until there should be a clear and distinct exposition, upon the part of Government, of the exact construction which it would be prepared to put upon the Treaty of Waitangi, that Lord Monteagle thought that it would the state of confusion which now existed be very satisfactory were the noble Lord in New Zealand would continue. He to state more definitely what was the pre- wished to guard himself from being supcise construction put by the Government posed to acquiesce in all the statements of upon the Treaty in question. He would the petitioners; but he did believe that wish to know whether he carried the prin- had the missionaries been left unmolested ciple so far as to assume that there was to by the vicious population which had remain to a semi-barbarous population such settled around them, the results of their a right over the whole of the immense terri- labours would have been such as had been tory of New Zealand as would preclude the anticipated by his noble Friend who had possibility of our exercising a right of go- presented their petition. But from the evil vernment, except by the permission of the influence exerted upon New Zealand by natives themselves. With respect to the its first settlers, a train of calamities arose. general subject, he was far from adopting Insults had been offered to the British all the views of the New Zealand Com-name, crimes had been committed, wars mittee. He knew the difficulties which the waged to an extent unequalled in the quess who preceded him-that not only history of our colonial administration. He repeated that the Colonial Office was not to be blamed for this. He had been for a short time in that Office himself; and he could not forget not only the difficulties but the perfect impossibility which, as it seemed to him, existed in many of the duties of that Office, as at present constituted, being satisfactorily performed. In 1834 a change had taken place in the Colonial Office, which it would have been well to have adhered to. Our Colonies had increased in numbers and in importance, to such an extent, that his noble Friend, with all his energy and ability-or, indeed, that two equal to his noble Friend, would be incapable of carrying on the manifold duties of the Colonial Secretary in such a manner as to be generally satisfactory and generally successful, and as it had been comparatively easy to manage them fifty years ago. He expressed his regret that the improvements introduced into the constitution of the Colonial Office, in 1834, had not been adhered to. The Earl of Chichester never considered that the Government could be fairly charged with any breach of faith in their administration of the affairs of New Zealand. The Church Missionary Society, however, had reasonable grounds for the fears expressed in their petition. He was satisfied with the distinct intimation of his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department, and he was sure that that intimation would be equally satisfactory to the petitioners. agreement, leads to the inference, that, in his opinion, the natives had a right to sell to the Company that tract of land which they did not inhabit; and I can show by repeated Acts of Parliament that that right to sell on the part of the natives, not the land which they occupied and enjoyed, but the waste land which they did not occupy or enjoy, was uniformly recognised during the period from namely, that on the part of the Crown, he confirmed the claim of the Company to a certain tract of land, on the assumpLord Stanley: I beg to say one word. tion that they had bought it from the naI should have wished that my noble Friendtives. In that way I contend the arrangehad either abstained from touching on the ments of the noble Lord are perfectly contopics to which he has alluded, or that hesistent. His assumption, proved by his had brought forward the subject in a more distinct form, and at a period of the evening, and in a state of the House, when I could have entered into a full explanation of the different points alluded to. Under present circumstances, then, I will abstain from doing anything but answering the demand made upon me by my noble Friend as to the construction which Government is prepared to place upon the Treaty of Waitangi, The whole ques-1836 to 1842. I am not prepared to say tion of that Treaty I will not argue now. If my noble Friend will give me an opportunity of arguing it, I will undertake to prove to demonstration, that not only by the present, but by all former Governiments that not only by the noble Lord who preceded me, but by the noble Mar that there may not be some districts wholly waste and uncultivated-there are such in the northern island—but they are few in number; but I know that a large portion of the district in question is distributed among various tribes, all of whom have as perfect a knowledge of the boun daries and limits of their possessions- prosecutions would be instituted especi boundaries and limits in some places na-ally by informers. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, July 10, 1845. ger, for Abingdon. Sir Frederic Thesi tural, in others artificial-as satisfactory The Lord Chancellor remarked, that and well defined, as were, one hundred the object of Government had of late been years ago, the bounds and marshes of to get rid, as far as possible, of prosecudistricts occupied by great proprietors and tions by common informers for penalties, their clans in the Highlands of Scotland. since nothing could be worse than a system With respect to the greater portions of under which they were encouraged. ProNew Zealand, I assert that the limits and secutions by the law officers of the Crown rights of tribes are known and decided had, in many instances, been substituted, upon by native law. I am not prepared and an alteration might, he thought, be to say what number of acres in New Zea- introduced into this Bill in Committee land are so possessed; but that portion which without endangering it. is not so claimed and possesed by any tribe, Bill read 2a. is, by the act of sovereignty, vested in the House adjourned. Crown. But that is a question on which native law and custom have to be consulted. That law and that custom are well understood among the natives of the islands. By them we have agreed to be bound, and by them we must abide. These laws-these customs-and the right arising from them on the part of the Crown-we have guaranteed when we accepted the sovereignty of the islands; and be the amount at stake smaller or larger; so far as native title is provedbe the land waste or occupied-barren or enjoyed, those rights and titles the Crown of England is bound in honour to maintain; and the interpretation of the Treaty of Waitangi, with regard to these rights, is, that, except in the case of the intelli- PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Hutt, from Gateshead, gent consent of the natives, the Crown has no right to take possession of land, and having no right to take possession of land itself, it has no right-and so long as I am a Minister of the Crown, I shall not advise it to exercise the power-of making over to another party that which it does not itself possess. Petition read and ordered to lie on the Table. Lord FOREIGN LOTTERIES BILL.] Stanley moved that this Bill be now read 2a. Lord Monteagle said, that nothing had been farther from the intention of the Government of which he had been a Member, than to encourage lotteries for the advantage of speculators at home or abroad; in fact, a Bill had been framed with the contrary effect; but he did not approve of that part of the Bill which deprived the informer of all inducement to follow up a prosecution where the law had been violated; he feared that, if the pecuniary motive were withdrawn, very few BILLS. Public.-10. Real Property; Assignment of Terms; Granting of Leases; Taxing Master, Court of Chancery 2o. Drainage (Ireland); Joint Stock Companies; Geologi- Private.-20. Shrewsbury and Holyhead Road. 3° and passed:-Lady Sandy's (or Turner's) Estate; Glas- for Alteration of Law relating to Church Property.-By Mr. Bannerman, from Aberdeen, in favour of the Universities (Scotland) Bill.-By Mr. E. Denison and other hon. Members, from Stockholders and other Inhabitants of New South Wales, for Repeal of certain Acts relating to that Colony.-By Mr. Fuller, from County of Sussex, for Relief from Taxation of Agriculture.-By Mr. Serjeant Murphy, and Mr. J. O'Connell, from a great number of places in Ireland, against the Colleges (Ireland) Bill. By Sir Howard Douglas, from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of Liverpool, against the Deodands Abolition (No. 2) Bill.-By Mr. B. Chapman and other hon. Members, from the Connty of York, in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill in Factories.-By Mr. L. Bruges, from Thomas Phillips and Robert Willett, for Alteration of Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Bill.-By Mr. Sheil, from Guardians of the Clogheen Union, against the Parochial Settlement Bill.-By Mr. Sheil, from several places, for Alteration of Physic and Surgery Bill.-By Mr. Hawes, from a great number of places, in favour of the Physic and Surgery Bill.-By Viscount Sandon, from Members of the Royal College of Surgeons residing in Liverpool, for Inquiry into the Government, &c. of the Royal College of Surgeons. From St. John Mason, Barrister at Law, for Alteration of Law relating to Tenure of Land (Ireland). COMMONS' ENCLOSURE BILL.] The House met at twelve o'clock, and proceeded in Committee with the remaining clauses, which, with Amendments, were agreed to, and the Report was ordered to be received. COLLEGES (IRELAND). Sir James Graham, at the five o'clock sitting, moved the Third Reading of the Colleges (Ireland) Bill. Mr. Bernal Osborne rose to bring for ward the Amendment of which he had given notice, for an Address to Her Majesty, praying that she would be graciously pleased to direct an inquiry to be made into the amount of the revenues of Trinity College, Dublin. He said that he was fully sensible, at this advanced period of the Session, when the fatigues of July legislation overcame the energies of the House, that it was impossible for any Member to succeed in rousing the dormant attention, or in exciting the wasted energies of the Members of the House in favour of some particular subject. He felt, therefore, the difficulty of awakening the attention of hon. Members on the subject of his Motion, to the extent which the importance of the question so pre-eminently deserved; but, at the same time, it was his intention to condense what he felt it necessary to say in the smallest possible compass. He did not believe that he could be fairly charged with throwing any unnecessary impediment in the way of this measure, because, in accordance with the request of the right hon. Baronet, he had withdrawn his Motion on a former occasion, at a time when he had the chance of a much larger number of hon. Members present, and consequently a much greater probability of support than at present. The more he considered the subject, the more did he feel the force of the allegation that the measure was one which must be wholly inefficient for the purpose for which it was proposed, unless some great change were effected in the constitution of Trinity College, Dublin. He entertained no hostility to that institution. On the contrary, he had many friends among its members. But he could not conceal from himself the fact that the whole system pursued in that College was so totally unknown, that while the darkness respecting it was maintained, a stop must be put to all legislation in that House in any way connected with it. He would ask hon. Members, when they considered the vast and great resources of Ireland, and also when they recollected that the Roman Catholic gentry of that country annually send 10,000l. to the Society at Lyons for the Propagation of the Faith, whether the people of that country should be induced to look to the ConsoliVOL. LXXXII. {Series} Third dated Fund when any new institution was to be raised. During the present Session they had drawn considerable sums from that fund for the endowment of a Roman Catholic College, contrary to the feeling of the great majority of the tax-payers of this country. They were also called upon by that measure to take from the same source another amount for the Colleges, and which was to be done against the wishes of the Catholic bishops; and it was impossible to say what dips might be made into it in the course of next Session. The Land Commissioners also looked very temptingly at this fund; for they suggested or recommended that a grant for the Irish Constabulary should be taken from this source. He did not mean to enter upon this question at present; but he had no doubt that the Irish Members of that House would be constantly looking to this fund, as the pool of Bethesda was by cripples, that they might have a dip when the right hon. Baronet troubled the waters. Although he agreed with his hon. Friend the Member for Limerick in many things, he could not agree with him that it was not with good intentions that the Government brought forward this measure; but he believed that the wiser and more satisfactory course would have been, if they had in the first place made inquiry into the revenues of Trinity College, Dublin, with a view to the establishment of these institutions in connexion with that University. At this moment the whole of the higher education in Ireland was monopolized by eighteen or twenty Fellows of Trinity College, Dublin, who took to themselves all the endowments of that rich University. He found, from a return which had been laid before Parliament, that only one in 320,000 Roman Catholics went to that College; those who did attend were received there as long as the heads of the University could get any money for their education, but afterwards excluded them from all the endowments. On a late occasion the right hon. Member for the University of Dublin, when he was not present, resisted all inquiry into the subject, on the ground that the revenues of the College were private. Did the right hon. Gentleman represent the Colleges in that House in a private or corporate capacity? The Legislature had interfered with and remodelled the rights of all the municipal corporations in Ireland; and did the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that M Parliament could not interfere with Trinity "Whereby knowledge, learning, and civiCollege as a corporation? As to the dis-lity may be increased among the Irish, and tinction between private and corporate their children's children, especially those that rights, he would refer to the authority of be poor (as it were in an orphans' hospital, freely), may have their learning and education a most eminent jurist on the point. He given them with more ease and lesser charges alluded to Sir James Macintosh. That than in other Universities they can attain it.” eminent man saidSo far, then, from its being endowed with Protestant money for an exclusive purpose, it was endowed with public money for public purposes. He defied the hon. Member to point out a single word in the charter which justified the assertion that it was for exclusive Protestant purposes. It was reserved to forty years later, when Strafford, for his own and his master's purposes, chose to introduce some arrangeFellows. He would go to the foundation ments with respect to Roman Catholic "Private property was one of those fundamental acts which constituted society. It was the band of society itself. But the acts which form and endow corporations are subsequent, and subordinate; the property of individuals is established as a general principle which seems coeval with society itself; but bodies, whether ecclesiastical or civil, are instruments fabricated by the Legislature for a specific purpose, which ought to be preserved whilst they are beneficial, amended when they are impaired, and rejected when they become useless and injurious." of this institution; and when he was told that it was a College endowed with Protestant money for Protestant purposes, he would recommend those who alleged this to go to the fons et origo of this establishment. He understood that the right hon. Member for the University of Dublin alluded to the Oath of Supremacy the other of that would prevent Catholics taking part in the University. If this was the case, why allow them to take degrees? The Member for Oxford, who was well acquainted with the history of his own and all other countries, must be aware that the system with respect to the Fellows in Trinity College was peculiar, and a de He regarded this to be a clear distinction between public and private property; and notwithstanding the strenuous opposition which he might expect from the right hon. Member for the University of Dublin, and some other persons connected with Trinity College, he felt that he should have the support of the hon. Member for the Uni-evening, and intimated that the existence versity of Oxford; for that hon. Gentleman had said that he would vote for inquiry if any allegation of abuse were brought forward. Now, if he brought forward allegations of abuse, and if he proved satisfactorily that the charter had been violated, and that the endowments had been diverted from the purposes for which they were intended, and that the acade-parture from the general academical sys mical system had been changed, he should rely upon the support of the hon. Baronet. He probably should be met with the cuckoo cry, that this was a Protestant institution, established by a Protestant Queen for Protestant purposes. He would not be stopped by such an objection. He believed that, on inquiry, the religious opinions of Queen Elizabeth would not be considered to have been orthodox by the hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford. But let them see how much Protestant money was devoted to the endowment of this College. It was founded in 1592 by Queen Elizabeth, and it was endowed out of the confiscated estate of the Earl of Desmond, and it was built on the site of the Catholic monastery of Allhallows. The letter of the Lord Deputy, would show for what purpose this University was founded; he would, therefore, read an extract from it (A.D. 1591) tem. In fact the whole system of the University of Dublin was an anomaly, because the Fellows consisted of married persons. The rule and custom of the University had been changed in this respect within the last five years. It was enough to make Queen Elizabeth shudder in her grave to hear of a body of married priests holding the fellowships in the College established by her. Supposing, then, that the University had the power of abrogating the Statute in one instance, as they had done in this case, was it to be said that they had not the power in another? He was sure that Queen Elizabeth would have been more readily reconciled to the abandonment of a religious test with respect to a chemical professor, than to a body of married Fellows in the College. He thought that the hon. Member for Oxford could hardly resist his Motion, for the body of married Fellows |