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that he had signed the deed of the Com- before told them was false, but he added that pany more than once. A Miss Golding he would then tell the truth. In a trial proved that Stinton had received letters at for perjury, the whole of the evidence would her residence, which were directed to a be laid before the jury; and the learned person of the name of Mr. Baldron, and Judge would tell them, he had very little that he had always passed in that name in doubt, that the prisoner had not committed her presence, and had opened the letters so perjury in the eyes of the law, because in directed. Stinton afterwards admitted that his supplemental answer he denied his false this was true, but denied that he had signed statement previously given, and his true the deed more than once, or had affixed the statement was received. This principle of name of Baldron to it. He admitted also taking the entire evidence as one act was that such a person as Penton did not exist. carried so far, that in Chancery causes, Mr. Stanley, a most respectable stockbroker, where a bill and afterwards a supplemental stated that he had seen Stintou, whom he bill were filed, the answers to both were taken knew as a jobber, sign the contract deed of as one answer ; and if the respondent dethe Company three times in one day, and nied in his second answer what he had stated that he had changed his dress on each occa- in his first, he was not considered in law to sion. This struck him as a remarkable be guilty of perjury. The case was clearly circumstance; he could not, however, state one which the Committee were bound to whether this person had affixed another report to the House ; but perhaps the name than that of Stinton. Robert Parish, course which they ought to have adopted the porter of Crosby Hall Chambers, swore was, to report that the witness had been that he knew Stinton as a bootmaker in guilty of equivocation; and then, if the the neighbourhood, and that, at his request, shorthand writer's notes were read at the he had taken in letters for him directed to bar of their Lordships' House, no noble Penton, which were always opened by Lord would have hesitated about voting Stinton. No person of the name of Penton that the witness be committed to Newgate ever had chambers at Crosby Hall. These for equivocation; and he (Lord Campbell) were the facts of the evidence to which he would certainly have heartily concurred in wished more particularly to call attention. such a Motion : but he did not think this

The Lord Chancellor suggested that the was a case in which they could persecute noble Earl should point out the particular for perjury, parts of the evidence on which he relied as Lord Cottenham said that, from what he the ground for prosecution.

had heard of the evidence, and the mode in The Earl of Besborough handed a copy which the witness had explained himself, of the evidence to the Lord Chancellor, and he confessed he would feel some difficulty pointed out some particular passages in it, in coming to a final decision on the matand then proceeded to read again to the ter; but, if he were not mistaken, he beHouse the passages in the evidence to lieved the terms of the order which their which he had before alluded. He con- Lordships would have to make, in a case cluded by stating, that he had given notice where a witness had grossly misconducted of bis Motion in the terms, that the Attor- himself, as this man obviously had done, ney General be directed to prosecute the would leave it to the discretion of the party; but not being a lawyer, he would Attorney General to prosecute, if he thought wish to leave the course to be pursued to fit so do to. Were the House to give a

1 the judgment of some of his noble and pereinptory order in the matter, it would learned Friends near him.

be tantamount to deciding as Judges in the Lord Campbell said, he wouid admit case without a trial. Under similar cirthat he had not looked into the evidence cumstances, the Court of Chancery would until after he had come down to the House ; not take any summary proceedings, but but from his experience in criminal prosecu- would refer the case to the Attorney tions, he would advise their Lordships to be General. cautious in adopting any particular course. Lord Campbell said, while he had been He had no doubt but that this man Stinton Attorney General, several cases similar to had lied abominably, and that he ought to the present were referred to him, and in have been reported to their Lordships; but every instance the orders of Parliament were the question for them to decide was, whe- of a peremptory nature. In the case of Stockther the case admitted of a prosecution for dale, who was ordered to be prosecuted for a perjury. The witness had told the Commit, libel on the House of Commons, the Attorjee that he should acknowledge what he had ney General of the day very likely thought

case

1275 Tithes Commutation Act. {LORDS} Tithes Commutation Act. 1276 it a foolish prosecution, but, from the terms | Miss Golding; whereas it appeared afterof the order, he was compelled to file the wards that he had asked her to receive information.

letters for him, and that she was the The Earl of Wicklow said, there was one keeper of a public-house. It did not folpoint in the case to which he wished to low, however, that because he had been direct the attention of the House. It was, in the habit of seeing her standing bethat the Committee had told the witness to hind the bar in a public-house, and had take care of what he was about, for if he requested her to keep letters for him, perjured himself he would be liable to that he should, therefore, know her name prosecution. No perjury had been com- to be Golding. He thought the course mitted, he believed, after that; and he suggested by his noble Friend (Lord thought the caution was intended as an Monteagle) to be the most judicious one intimation that the House would not prose- they could take, as they ought to pay cute him for what had previously occurred. that mark of respect to the Report of

Lord Monteagle said, the Committee had the Committee, no matter what decision reported on the 12th of July, and now, on they might find it afterwards necessary the 31st of the month, their Lordships to come to. were required to come to a decision re- The Earl of Besborough said, he would specting the charge contained in that Re- beg leave to move that the Report of the port. There was no doubt but that the 12th of July be referred to a Select Com.

was one which could not be passed mittee, with instructions to report to the over altogether. The offence was clearly House what steps it would be necessary a moral perjury, whether it happened to to take with respect to John Stinton, rebe a legal perjury or not. It was a per- ported to the House to have been guilty jury for the purpose of accomplishing a of perjury. fraud, and deceiving their Lordships and

The Lord Chancellor said, they should the other House of Parliament; and such allege on the indictment what the per an offence could not be suffered to rest jury was, and select from the evidence without any notice being taken of it. the particular passages on which they There was, however, no doubt, even if the relied. individual were less ingenuous than he Lord Monteagle said, it might be supappeared to be, that he had had since then posed out of doors that the Committee sufficient time to take himself out of the had acted unjustly twards this person. country; but after, by the recent decision The Lord Chancellor said, the fact was of their Lordships respecting this Railway quite the reverse. He had been himself of Bill (the Dublin and Galway), they had opinion that the witness had committed punished innocent persons for the faults of perjury, for which he could be prosecuted, others, it would be contrary to every prin- until he came to look into the evidence. ciple of justice were they now to allow Lord Monteagle said, lest any such supone who was really guilty to go scot free. position might exist, he would beg to read The course which he would recommend two of the questions and answers that had was, that the question should be referred been given as an instance. In No. 405, to a Committee upstairs for half an hour, the witness was asked, “Do you know with instructions to report to the House William Baldron, silk throwster ?-No." what steps were necessary to be taken. And again, in No. 489, the question was

The Lord Chancellor said, he had never repeated, “Do you know William Balseen the evidence until it had been alluded dron ?-l do.” to at the Table. He doubted very much Motion agreed to. whether they could proceed with a prosecution for perjury, under the circumstances. Tithes COMMUTATION Acr.] Lord The witness stated that he had never passed Campbell presented a petition on the subas Baldron ; and he afterwards explained ject of the commutation of tithes, and said what he had meant by that answer in this that a very doubtful question existed whemanner : he said he had often received ther, in cases where tithes had not been letters addressed to the name of Baldron ; paid for many years, they were now really but that he did not think that meant pass- payable or not. Several actions had been ing by the name. They could scarcely brought to decide the point; but they had hope to assign perjury on that part of the all proved decidedly abortive, and the evidence, with any probability of success. Judges were, he believed, equally divided Again, the witness said he did not know respecting it. It was, therefore, he thought,

absolutely necessary that there should be in the internet the regular forces had been

less disgraceful some further legislation on the subject, and the sooner it took place the better. Were disbanded, and the safety of the country it not for this point, he believed tithes entrusted to the Palikeri; neither order would be commuted all over England be- nor justice were respected in the interfore the present time.

pal administration of the country, and the The Lord Chancellor said, the subject peaceful continuation of its foreign relawas a very important one; and the con- tions was hourly endangered by the law. Aicting opinions respecting it, only showed less conduct of the border population. Colhow lawyers would sometimes differ. He | letti and the Greek Government had taken concurred with his noble and learned no steps to put an end to this disgraceful slate Friend, that the Act required some of things, unless the proclamation which had Amendments; and, if the matter were been issued might be considered as an exintrusted to his hands during the recess, ception, wherein the Government call on he would take care to have steps taken re- the population of the frontier districts to specting it, before the next Session of form themselves into a militia, for the Parliament.

purpose of suppressing the robbers who

infest them-a measure which is more GREECE.) Lord Beaumont said, he calculated to increase than diminish the would proceed to put to the noble Earl evils complained of; for when the lawless opposite (the Earl of Aberdeen) the ques- character of the mountain population is tion of which he had given notice on a considered, and the disorganized state of former evening. It might be in the re- society throughout the country taken into collection of their Lordships, that when account, the proclamation is neither more on a recent occasion, he had brought the nor less than an attempt to put down robaffairs of Greece under their notice, and bery by giving arms to the robbers themhad ventured to state that the conduct of selves. An officer named Valenza, of whose the Government at Athens was such as to appointment to a command on the frontiers call for some advice, if not more active in- he (Lord Beaumont) had on a former occaterference, on the part of the Allied Pow. sion complained, had not been removed or ers, he had been met by the noble Earl reprimanded ; although it was known that with an assertion, that affairs in that quar- the noble Earl himself had objected to that ter were not in so bad a state as had been officer's appointment, and even gone so far believed ; and that nothing had occurred as to instruct Sir E. Lyons to request his which was of a serious nature. It might removal. He (Lord Beaumont) hoped the also be in the recollection of the House, noble Earl would be more explicit on the that when, the same occasion, he (Lord present, than he was on a former occasion ; Beaumont) alluded to the disorganized for his words bad been actually construed state of society in the frontier districts of into a positive approval of the Greek GoGreece, on the side of Turkey, and added vernment, and the noble Earl himself was that a regular system of brigandage was mentioned as an abettor of Colletti. Difcarried on by the subjects of Greece in ferent interpretations, it was true, had that quurter, the noble Earl replied, by been given in different quarters of the declaring that there had been only one noble Earl's speech ; but the general imisolated instance of robbery across the bor- pression in Athens itself had been, that the der, and that of so unimportant a charac- Foreign Office here was not inclined to ter as not to deserve comment. He (Lord cordially support Sir Edmund Lyons in Beaumont) knew not if the noble Earl his remonstrances, and the Greek authoriwas better informed now, than he seemed ties were consequently induced to look ento be then ; for if he was not, he was tirely to the French Minister for advice or sadly behind the rest of Europe in know- countenance in their proceedings. Now, ledge on this subject. The details of nu- he (Lord Beaumont) hoped the noble Earl merous incursions, some of which had been would lay aside his diplomatic reserve, and attended with bloody consequences, were see the necessity of distinctly stating his well known both in London and Paris; sentiments with regard to the Government the very names of the parties who headed of Colletti, and no longer let any doubt be these marauding bands were known, and entertained of his opinions on the general many of the cases had been given at length condition of public affairs in Greece. It in the German papers. While these events was most foolishly, as well as most wrongly were daily occurring on the frontier, a considered abroad, that the interests of France and England were at variance both, the detriment of her interests; or permit in Greece and Turkey. Nothing could the Consuls of these Powers to put thembe more erroneous: the 'interests of the selves in advance of ours, on the plea of two countries were essentially the same in enjoying exclusively the privilege of proboth quarters—their object was, or ought to tecting the Christians of a single sect. be, identical. England and France alike After a few other observations, the noble were deeply interested in preserving the in. Lord concluded by putting the question of dependence, integrity, and due influence of which he had given notice-namely, whethe Ottoman Empire, who was and could be ther the Government had received ang the only safe keeper of the Dardanelles ; information of the state of the frontier befor should the key of that gate be wrenched tween Greece and Turkey! And, if so, from her, and the opening and shutting the whether they had taken any steps to induce Dardanelles and Bosphorus be at the dis- the Greek Government to adopt measures cretion of a northern Power, the trade and to prevent the continuation of the disgracepossessions of England and France in the ful state of things koown to exist there? Mediterranean would be at the mercy of Also, whether the Government had not Russia. In the like manner, our interests sent instructions to Sir Edmund Lyons, reand those of France were identically the quiring him to demand of the Greek Gosame in the smaller State of Greece. We vernment the dismissal of an officer or were both interested in creating there an person named Valença; and what reply, if independent commercial community, to- any, had been received to such demand tally unconnected with the great political The Earl of Aberdeen : I am ready to questions which agitated the rest of Europe admit, my Lords, that the peculiarity of -a neutral spot in the Levant for the our relations with Greece may justify the benefit of trade and commerce, and not an noble Lord in bringing various matters arena on which the rival jealousies of the under the attention of your Lordships in greater Powers might deploy their political connexion with that country, which, under intrigues. Although the two countries re- other circumstances, it would not be dequired the same course of policy to be pursued sirable to do, neither, indeed, would the for their mutual advantage, the Consuls of noble Lord be justified in so doing. In the England and France in the East were gene- first place, this country has, in conjunction rally at variance; and while a single glance with France and Russia, created this State at the map would convince any impartial of Greece; we not only created it, but we person, that the objects of the two Govern- guaranteed its independence and the inments ought to be the same, political par- tegrity of its territories. This, therefore, ties in the Levant were invariably split into gives us a right to take such precautions an English and French faction, This state as not to render that guarantee more oner. of things must have been caused by the ous than it necessarily ought to be. We want of energy on the part of the authori. have also guaranteed the payment of the ties at home, and the consequent neglect in interest of a loan contracted by the Greek despatching proper instructions to their State, which we have been called upon to representatives abroad. Some portion of discharge ourselves for the last two or this unnatural state of hostility between three years. This, therefore, gives us unthe Consulates of England and France, doubtedly a right to interfere so far in the might be attributed to a disposition on internal affairs of this State as to see that the part of the French Government to we should be released from these obliga. flatter the vanity of some of their servants, tions as rapidly as possible. And the Greek who sought to enhance their personal impor- / Government would do well to recollect tance by arrogating to themselves the ex- that, by the provisions of the Treaty, we clusive right to protect the Christians in are enabled to enter into possession of such the East. Now, he (Lord Beaumont) main of the revenues of Greece as we think tained, that the Porte should have the sole proper for the repayment of the debt so government of its own subjects; but should contracted; and they should consider that the Sultan, in consequence of the interpre- this is not a vain formality, but a right, tation of some ancient or supposed agree- the exercise of which must depend ment, delegate to the European Sovereigns good faith of the Greek Government itself, authority, in certain cases, over those of and the endeavours they make to discharge his subjects who professed the Catholic faith, the obligations under which they lie

. But England should not allow France, or any the noble Lord must recollect that although other Power, to take a position thereby to this is true, as a consequence of the rela.

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on the

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tions in which we stand towards Greece, it gressions against Turkey, is perfectly inmay be carried to such an extent as to leave credible. True, they do not repress them, no shadow of independence whatever in for they have not force sufficient to put the Government of that country. I am them down; but what they are most deready to admit that the present state of sirous about, is to remove the overwhelmGreece, in many respects, is such as to give ing Turkish force which is assembled on pain to all who wish well to the prosperity the frontier. But that the Government and welfare of that State. No doubt out-of Greece, a country without any military rages have been committed ; murders, rob- force, should endeavour to provoke hostility beries, and violence of various descriptions on the part of the Turkish Empire, is perhave been perpetrated, none of which can fectly impossible; and when coupled with be compatible with a government of peace the consideration, the declaration of the and order. I do not feel, therefore, that three protecting Powers of England, we are precluded from giving any such France, and Russia, that they would neicounsel and advice as we may think cal. ther tolerate aggression on the part of culated to remedy these internal disorders ; Turkey on the one hand, nor Greece on but I do not feel that I am called upon to the other, if such a notion as that alluded give any opinion of the Government of to is entertained by Coletti, or any other Coletti, as required by the noble Lord. He Minister in Greece, it would fully qualify may express any opinion which he may him for a place in a lunatic asylum, did think proper ; but it is not my province to any such exist in his country. The noble give any opinion of the conduct of a Min- Lord says that a certain person has been ister of a Foreign and friendly State; I placed in command of the forces on the give such advice on the part of Her Ma- frontier, who ought not, in the noble Lord's jesty's Government as we think likely to opinion, to be so appointed. It is said that be useful; and I hope, not withstanding the man alluded to has been remarkable what the noble Lord has said, that such for having taken a conspicuous part in some advice is not without its salutary effect, transactions which occurred four or five With respect to what he said of the ex. years ago, and was mixed up with some cesses committed on the frontier, I must excesses which were committed on the repeat that there have been gross exagge- Turkish frontier. With respect to this rations on the subject. Unfortunately this man's appointment to a command also, there frontier is inhabited by a race of men im- is another misrepresentation. I admit that perfectly civilized; and I am afraid I must it would have been more desirable not to admit that, if the Cretans are said to have have employed this man at all; but been always liars, I believe the province every one knows the difficulty which all of Greece has been always inhabited, more Governments sometimes find in satisfying or less, by robbers--and this is a robber those parties who have claims upon population. Unfortunately, the acts of them. Now, it was thought necessary which they are guilty are not regarded in to give this man an employment; but the same manner as they would be by more he is not in the command of any force civilized countries ; it is a species of war- whatever on the frontier. He is not on fare which is looked upon almost with the the frontier. I understand his command same respect as legitimate warfare. Now, is thirty or forty miles from the frontier. I do not deny that various outrages have And what is the force which this person taken place on the Turkish frontier, but commands, who is supposed to inspire terthat they have been carried to such an ex- ror into the Turkish empire ? Why, he tent as has been described I utterly deny. commands eighteen men ; and they are not On one or two occasions these small pre- soldiers, but a species of local guard-of datory bands have crossed over the boun- national and provincial guard. And it so dary, and have been dealt with very pro. happens—although I agree in the opinion perly but very severely by the Turkish that, considering the notoriety he has actroops, and several of them have met with quired, it would have been bet:er not to what they richly deserved - the most se- have employed him at all— but it so hapvere treatment. Some of them have pens that he is employed at his own home also been put to death by the Turkish where he has a small farm, which he occutroops. But to suppose for a moment pies and cultivates himself, and which that the Greek Governinent would either unfortunately happens to be nearer the support or encourage such proceedings as frontier than could be wished. But that those for the purpose of carrying on aghe occupies any post that can excite VOL. LXXXII. { Seried}

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