Sir R. Peel said: However late the pe- , for educational purposes, the hon. Gentleriod of the Session, and however severe man says he deeply regrets the limited the pressure of public business, I cannot amount. The amount, however, has been but think the importance of the subject an increase upon the grant of last year. justifies the hon. Gentleman in calling the The amount last year was 40,000l. The attention of the House to the question of amount in the present year is 75,0001. education. I shall very briefly notice the Therefore, in the present year, as compared particular points to which the hon. Gentle with the past, we have proposed a vote man has referred, taking in order the Reso- nearly double. For education in Ireland lutions of which he has given notice. The we have also voted 75,000l. ; so that we House will have laboured under erroneous have proposed to vote for educational purimpressions if they supposed that there was poses in England and Ireland, in the prenot full information afforded with regard sent year, no less a sum than 150,000!. to the progress of education. I need not That is a strong indication of the wish of the refer to the volume presented annually to Government to apply the public money, so the House as a reason why any oral state- far as they can, to the purposes of education. ment should not be made to the House on I advise the hon. Gentleman, therefore, to the part of the Government, with regard leave this matter in the hands of the Goto the progress of education during the pre-vernment, and to rest satisfied that they ceding year. But for the purpose of indi- will next year, if necessary, make an incating to those Members who take an in- creased grant to further the object to which terest in the question, I may say that there he has called attention.

I entirely agree are annually presented to Parliament the with him in what he says as to the status Reports of the inspectors appointed by a of the schoolmaster. I think his position Committee of this House, which Reports ought to be regarded as honourable; and, contain the most detailed and valuable in- by attaching importance and value to his formation on the subject of education. labours, we shall be amply repaid. The There is the volume presented in the hon. Gentleman has also referred to the course of the present year, containing the necessity of increased grants for the normal able and full reports of the several Inspec- schools in which the schoolmasters are pretors of Education. But I am not at all pared for their labours. He will find that, prepared to contend against the principle within the last two years, the Vote for that suggested by the hon. Gentleman. It is specific purpose has been increased—at possible that because the information is so least, that there has been an application for full and vague that Members may not read- an increased sum for that purpose. Some ily acquire that knowledge of the subject years since the sum of 10,0001. was granted which possibly they might obtain from an for the normal schools of the British and oral statement made by a Member of the Go- Foreign School Society. In addition to vernment. I am therefore disposed, on the that the sum of 10,000l. was granted for part of the Government, to give my serious the establishment of the schools of the consideration during the recess to the pro- Committee of Council. Within the last position of the hon. Member. I think I two years an annual grant of 1,0001. was can undertake to say, that during the course given to the National Society, and 750l. of the next Session this Vote will not be was given to the British and Foreign moved on the part of the Crown without Schools for their annual maintenance. such an explanation being made as shall There was also a grant of 3,7001 made for answer the purpose of the hon. Member. the building and establishment of the I think it possitle that such a statement Chester Diocesan Training School; and a may awaken public attention more forcibly grant of 3,2001, towards the Training to the subject, than the presentation of this School in Lancashire ; 3,5001. was also volume, and will better enable Members given towards the building and establishto discuss the matter, and bring their local ment of the York Diocesan Normal School. information to bear upon it. At any rate In Scotland, towards the building and esit will be a proof that the Government and tablishment of the Edinburgh Normal Parliament attach due importance to the School, 4,0001. was granted; and 5,0001. subject. I think I have said enough to towards the establishment of the Normal show the hon. Gentleman that it will not School in Glasgow. I think these Votes a be necessary for him to ask on this occasion sufficient proof that the Government ha for any expression of opinion on the part not undervalued the importance of the of the House. With reference to the grant subject introduced by the hon. Gentleman.

The ap

The supply of masters, properly qualified, , with the distinct understanding, that if is at the root of the whole system; and I his conduct and attainments do not justify quite agree with the hon. Gentleman, that the permanent retention of his services, he you cannot more effectually promote edu- is liable to lose his situation. cation-local education—than by making a pointment of a person to the public serproper provision for the masters. The vice should not entirely depend on the Committee of Council feel that one of the exhibition he may make on examination; most important objects to which their there are points connected with the moral attention has been directed, is the increase character that ought to be taken into the of the means of providing masters properly account. The mere exhibition of superiqualified, and of good character, for the ority in an examination must be necessarily education of youth. Within a recent pe- imperfect; and if you were to rely on it, riod, we have extended the objects for you would find that you were not securing which the annual grant is made. In Eng- in all cases a supply of trustworthy perland, in 1840, a sum of money was granted sons. I admit there ought to be evidence for the erection of 211 schools. In the of sufficient attainment to justify an apyear ending August, 1843, a sum was pointment; but I doubt whether that rule granted for the erection of 251 schools; of giving a trial for the first year is not, but in the year ending August, 1844, funds on the whole, a better mode of securwere supplied for the purpose of building ing faithful, trustworthy, public servants, not less than 380 schools. Then we have than making their eligibility depend on made another addition to the object for such an exhibition. As to extending Gowhich the Vote was given. We have vernment patronage to boys educated in consented to give Votes towards the con- those schools, there would be great diffistruction of schoolmasters' houses; because culty in acting practically on that suggeswe think it of great importance that the tion. The youths leave school at fourteen master should reside in the neighbourhood or fifteen, and were not eligible for public of the schools; and, by providing the employment till twenty-one. During that masters with a comfortable residence, you interval their time would not be very usehold out an increased inducement to per- fully employed, if led to rely on an apsons of competent attainments to undertake pointment at the end of six years. A simithe important task of education. As I lar encouragement held out to the school. said before, in addition to the objects to master would tend to interfere with a which the Vote was applied, we found it sufficient supply of schoolmasters. The necessary to propose an increase to the hon. Gentleman 'himself will see the diffiVote, to the amount of 35,000l. I am culty of practically carrying that suggestion bound, at the same time, to admit that I into effect; besides, such appointments doubt whether that increase ought to be would have the effect of discouraging those the limit of future grants. So great is who were unsuccessful. Under these cirthe desire of persons interested in the wel- cumstances, I hope I have met the propofare of the working classes to increase the sition of the hon. Member in the spirit in means of instruction, that I much doubt which it deserves to be met. I hope the whether the application of an increased hon. Gentleman will allow the question to sum in the course of next year would not be put from the Chair without calling for a be fully justified by the circumstances of division. the case.

I think, after what I have stat- Mr. Wyse said, he was about to second ed, that it will be hardly necessary for the the Motion of his hun. Friend; but the hon. Gentleman to call for any expression observations of the right hon. Baronet had of the sense of the House. The last Reso- gone far to remove the motives which lution moved by the hon. Gentleman, and might have induced his hon. Friend to the last topic to which he adverted, was the press this question to a division. The policy of making the appointment to the right hon. Baronet had omitted in his statesubordinate offices of Government depend, ment any allusion to what the hon. Memas far as possible, on an examination of the ber (Mr. Ewart) had said respecting lin merits of the candidates for such offices. I braries. The observations of the hon. doubt whether the system at present adopt. Member on that head were most important, ed in the different departments of Govern- and highly deserving of the attention of ment is not better. In almost all cases, Government. proposal of the the appointment is for the first year as a right hon. Gentleman, of giving a more probationer. The individual is appointed comfortable house to the master, and a

a

more comfortable school to the pupils, was had induced them to increase the grant for deserving of the greatest praise. He hoped education in England and Ireland. He that the right hon. Baronet would go hoped that if this grant should be found further, and allow a small portion of land insufficient for its object, that the grant in the agricultural districts to the teacher, would be increased, and that some report so as to enable him to command more com- would be laid before the House of the apfort. This would be peculiarly applicable plication of the former grant, the various in the case of Ireland, and more so than in points of expenditure, and the mode in the case of England, as land would be which the money was disposed of. He more easily procured for such purpose. He was glad to see that the Committee of the wished to call the attention of the right Privy Council had increased their exerhon. Baronet to the means that might be tions in assisting schools with school mataken to improve the condition of teachers, terials, such as maps. He thought this a in Ireland particularly. It was proposed, matter of great importance. He believed that the National Board of Education in that no people were more ignorant of the Ireland should be incorporated, so as to extent, the various circumstances, and enable them to take lands for the purposes statistics of the British possessions, than the to which he (Mr. Wyse) had adverted. He British people generally were. Now in thought that great improvement might be Prussia this was not the case. Every made in the normal schools, upon the un- school in Prussia was furnished with an derstanding that a certain system of educa- atlas, containing an exposition of the es. tion should be adopted in those schools tent and relations of the Prussian dominwhich would be satisfactory. He thought ions; and to which was appended a rathat, under such an arrangement, an in- rious and extensive amount of statistical creased sum of money might be given for facts with respect to the population, rethe improvement and enlargement of those venue, extent of territory, and various schools. He rejoiced at the statement other circumstances appertaining to Pruswhich had been made by the right hun. sia, so that every boy in those schools in Baronet, and which he had reason to think Prussia was made acquainted with the from his observation of the conduct pur- leading facts connected with the geograsued by the right hon. Baronet on this phical and statistical state and relations of question on former occasions, he was sure Prussia. He thought that this was a sub--that those observations were not made ject worthy of consideration, and meansought lightly, but that they would be followed, to be taken to diffuse a similar knowledge as they had heretofore been, by deeds and with respect to Great Britain, through the

He hoped that, after the ob- means of those schools, to the boys educated servations that had been made by the right in them. He hoped that if the right hon. hon. Baronet-a declaration which was Baronet should find the grant of 75,000l. most satisfactory-that his hon. Friend insufficient, that he would recommend a (Mr. Ewart) would be induced to with larger grant. He concluded by expressing draw his Motion.

his satisfaction at what had been stated by Mr. Hume expressed the pleasure which the right hon. Baronet, and he thought he felt at the declaration of the right hon. that after that declaration his hon. Friend Baronet on the subject of education. He could not do better than to leave the malwas glad to find that a subject of such ter in the hands of the Government. great importance had been brought for- Mr. Hawes was glad that the Motion of ward by his hon. Friend. He was happy his hon. Friend had been brought forward, to hear, from the statement of the right as it had elicited the important declaration hon. Gentleman, that the cause of educa- of the right hon. Baronet. No grant which tion, and the education of the people at the Government could propose would large, engaged the best attention of the meet with more cordial satisfaction from Government. He was glad to find that that House, than an increased grant for the the desire of the Government was that all purposes of education. In saying this, he classes should be educated without ex- could not but consider the grant of 75,0001. clusion. He was glad to see, in the as inadequate for the great purposes to increased grant for education, an increased which it was intended to be applied. The desire on the part of the Government to education now afforded in our public promote the education of all classes with schools

very imperfect Private out exclusion. He was glad to see that teachers were necessary in addition to the their interest in the cause of education school instruction. This increased the

measures.

was

expenses, which were so great as to put this, and showed that the school had exit out of the power of the middle classes to cited the highest expectations amongst avail themselves of them. He thought the manufacturers, for it statedsomething like the collegiate system which “In the course of the last year, numerous they had lately established in Ireland applications have been received for the execumight be introduced into this country with tion of designs in various departments of great advantage. It was necessary, also, ornamental art, and every endeavour has been to improve the position of teachers, and to made to comply with these requests, as far as induce men of talent and ability, by hold. the execution of such commissions has been ing out to them sufficient advantages, to consistent with, and could be made to form a continue to devote themselves to the in- part of the prescribed exercises and course of

study in the school. Designs for different struction of youth. With this view, he purposes have thus been furnished to manuwould suggest that a fixed annual sum facturers in London, and in several provincial should be allowed, in the shape of a pen-towns, and from time to time manufacturers sion, say from 501. to 100l. each, to such and others have purchased of students various schoolmasters as had distinguished them- designs which have been produced in the perselves by great talent and long service in formance of the exercises of the school.' In the instruction of youth.

the number of such commissions, and in the Amendment negatived.

extent to which the productions of the students are applied to commercial purposes, a con

stant increase is evident; and ihe numerous SCHOOL OF DESIGN.] On the Question communications which come before the Coun. that the Speaker do now leave the Chair, cil at each monthly meeting of the committee

Mr. W. Williams said, if the right hon. op. correspondence, as well as the frequent Baronet would consent to the appoint

visits and inquiries of persons connected with ment of the Committee for which he had ornamental manufactures, may be noticed in given notice of his intention to move, he and those commercial parties whose interests

proof of increasing relations between the school would not detain the House with a single this institution was especially designed 10 observation.

promote." Sir R. Peel believed his hon. Friend The failure of the school was attributed would be able to show that there was no

as he believed, to the constitution of its ground whatever for the allegations in the

managing body. The whole management petition upon which the hon. Member tad founded his case for a Committee. If so, who were called the Council of the School;

was confided to twenty-four gentlemen, and considering that it would be most ob- and when was there an instance of any jectionable to do any thing that might institution having a governing body of tend to encourage insubordination in the this nature, consisting of twenty-four school, he must refuse his assent to the

,

Some time

persons, being successful? Motion. Mr. W. Williams would then proceed

aster the commencement of the school, to call the attention of the House to the Mr. Dyce, a distinguished artist and very circumstances under which he brought for- talented man, was appointed to conduct ward the Motion. He believed he was

He believed he was it, and he performed ibat duty with great in a condition to prove that great mis- ability and perfect satisfaction to all management existed in regard to this in parties. He was, however, removed, in stitution. That it had proved a complete consequence of some dispute with the failure for the objects for which it was in directors. A Mr. Wilson was then apstituted was proved by the Report of the pointed director, a gentleman unlike Mr. Committee which had been just presented Dyce, for he was neither artist nor work. to the House. The Committee say

Subsequenily, a gentleman most

distinguished for bis talent, an associate “ It is to be regretted that manufacturers Royal Academician, and one of the most are not more generally disposed to meet the views of such candidates for their service, and rising men of the day, Mr. Herbert, was to afford them such facilities and liberal en appointed 10 teach the school. That couragement as would serve to secure, for the gentleman, believing that the school was purposes of ornamental manufactures, much capable of producing great national adavailable talent, which, in default of such en. | vantages, undertook for a salary, which couragement, is often withdrawn from the could be of no object to him, the duties further study of ornament, and directed ex- of master. The great ability of Mr. clusively to the pursuit of fine art."

Herbert was admitted by the Council But the very next paragraph contradicted themselves in their Report; he was, how

a

man.

Mr. Herbert, their former master, the same salary he had been allowed at the school, namely, 100l. a year, if he would undertake their instruction, devoting only one-half of the time to that duty which he had been required to give at the school; but that gentleman refused, for he could make five times as much by applying the same time to his profession. In conse

prizes last year being expelled, there was now nobody in the school to compete for them. And here he must say that the Council had acted with less fairness than he expected, in declining to mention in their Report the names of those students who gained prizes last year, and were afterwards expelled. He was informed that the exhibition this year exhibited a miserable lack of talent, and the prizes were chiefly obtained by persons who could not be said to belong to the school

ever, dismissed. And he understood that on the occasion of that gentleman's dismissal, four only of the twenty-four members of the Council were present. No doubt there were many highly talented men amongst the members of the Council; but the great misfortune was that they seldom or never attended. One great difficulty in carrying out the objects of such an institution as the School of De-quence of the young men who gained the sign was the getting together a class of talented young men advanced in the arts. That difficulty had, in this case, been got over, and a class was formed, consisting of thirty-nine young men efficient as artists, that efficiency being proved by the fact, that five of the prizes given in 1843 were obtained by members of this class; and last year the same class carried away thirteen of the highest out of twenty prizes. The young men composing this senior class wrote a letter to the Council, complaining that the director was not certainly by persons who had not been capable of affording them the instruction educated therein. One person, who had they required; and the Council for this, gained two prizes, had been seven years a without any inquiry, ordered their expul-designer in some of the manufacturing dission. The right hon. Baronet (Sir R.tricts of Scotland, and had obtained a Peel) said they should not encourage a respectable living there by his talents as a rebellious spirit amongst the pupils; and designer. Another person, who had gained no doubt he thought that the thirty-three prizes, had only been three months at seven scholars who had made these repre- the school, having been educated elsewhere. sentations to the Council were mere boys, Two or three other old designers had obor the sons of poor men. They were tained prizes. Let the House look at the neither. There were amongst them the falling-off in the number of pupils this sons of gentlemen as respectable as many year, as compared with the last. In April, of those he was now addressing; and 1844, the number of pupils attending the instead of being mere boys, they were for evening classes was 196; in July it was the most part men between twenty-one 189, showing a falling-off of seven. This and thirty years of age, many of whom year, the number in April was 186, and had evinced considerable talent. The in July, as he was told, it was only 111, Council had since offered to permit the being a falling off of seventy-five. This was return of those young men upon terms to be attributed to the proceedings of the contained in a letter drawn up by this very Council in expelling thirty-seven of the Mr. Wilson, in language as offensive as most advanced and most able young men could well be imagined. They were re-in the school. What was the present state quired to make a special application to of the school? Mr. Pugin, one of the the director, acknowledging the impro- most able men in this or any other counpriety of their previous conduct, and ex-try, stated that there were but two Engpressing their intention to conform them-lishmen of any talent in his service as selves in every respect, for the future, to all the regulations of the school, as laid down by the directors. This might be a proper way to treat boys of fourteen or fifteen years of age; but it was not the way to treat men who had left the school not from any rebellious spirit, but because they found they were wasting their time there for want of sufficient means of instruction. These pupils had offered to

decorators in the Gothic department, and these were two of the pupils who had been expelled from the School of Design. In a letter which Mr. Pugin had made public, he gave it as his opinion that there was no hope of seeing any real good effected by the School of Design, as at at present managed; though under a different system it might have been made the means of creating a school of national