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against us. What would have been our , as that to which the noble Lord alluded had own feelings were some foreign nation to been concluded with the Brazils. He called attempt to interfere with us in the same upon the Government to say how long way as it was proposed now to interfere were the great manufacturing interests of with the Brazils ? When England was a this country to be jeopardized - how long slave-trading country itself, it would have were the property and the lives of British repelled with indignation such an interfe- subjects to be endangered, in order to carry rence on the part of any foreign country. out the peculiar views of a small section of He (Mr. M. Gibson) was almost inclined the anti-slavery party in this country? to agree with the view expressed the other He said a small section, for he was justified night by his hon. Friend the Member for in saying that the anti-slavery party, as a Gateshead (Mr. Hutt); he was almost in- body, disapproved of the policy of Ministers clined to go with his hon. Friend in saying -and the Memorial which had been prethat it was doubtful whether the exertions sented to the Government from that body, of our cruisers on the coast of Africa and distinctly deprecated armed interference. on the coast of Brazil, for suppressing the The hon. Member concluded by saying that Slave Trade, had not tended to increase he should take the sense of the House the evil it was our object to put an end to. against the Bill. At all events he was inclined to think our Sir R. Peel said : I will, as shortly as policy in this respect was questionable; I can, state 10 the House the objecis of and should his hon. Friend in the course the Bill which has been sent down by the of the ensuing Session feel it his duty to House of Lords, and which I now move move for the appointment of a Committee shall be considered in a Committee of this to inquire into the subject, he would House. The international engagements support him.

What at this moment between Brazil and this country in respect was the position of the great interests of the Slave Trade rest on a Convention of this country-of our manufactures in concluded between the iwo countries in reference to the Brazils? The Brazilian 1826. By the First Article of that ConGovernment said, we will put a discrimin- vention, it was provided that it should ating duty on your manufactures of 20 or not, from a time i herein named, be lawful 30 per cent. as compared with the duty we for a subject of the empire of Brazil to be impose upon the manufactures of other concerned in carrying on the African countries; and we will continue that dis- Slave Trade under any pretext or in any criminating duty until you give up your manner whatever, and that the carrying exclusive policy in reference to our sugar, on of such trade after that period by any and until you receive that sugar on the same terms as you admit the sugars of the person or subject of His Imperial Majesty

deemed . most favoured nations. He called upon There was, therefore, an international enthe right hon. Baronet to show to the House that it was not his own policy that gagement between this country and Brazil, had brought Lord Aberdeen into that dis- that from a certain time the subjects of agreeable necessity in which he hail ad- the Brazilian empire, engaged on any premitted he was placed in proposing to carry Slave Trade, should be guilty of the offence

text or in any manner in carrying on the out the clause of the Treaty of 1826 in this hostile spirit—and he would call upon

of piracy. The Brazilian subject was not the Government to say, supposing that the merely by the municipal laws of his own result of this measure should be the confis- couniry liable to the penalty for piracy; cation of the property and the endangering' but there was a solemn engagement enthe lives of British subjects in the Brazils, tered into between the Brazilian Govern-- whether they had contemplated such a

ment and this country by which the contingency, whether they had considered offence was made piracy. Shortly after all these things? Some time ago Lord that Convention there was another entered Aberdeen intimated, in reply to a question into by the Brazils, adopted from one that put to him, that a Treaty was about to be was existing between Portugal and this concluded with the Brazilian Government, country, concluded in 1817, which had for and he had no doubt that British property its object the determining, by mutual arand British subjects in the Brazils would rangement between the iwo countries, in be respected. But the late mail contained what mode effect should be given to that nothing confirmatory of that statement, and engagement. A mutual Right of Search every reason to suppose that no such Treaty was given in the case of Brazilian ships


and English ships, and Courts of Mixed | enter into that friendly concert. Commission were appointed for determin- House will see what have been the proing offences at variance with the existing posals that have been made from time to engagements. Either Government had time; not recently, but during the period the power in its own discretion 10 termi- my noble Friend Lord Aberdeen has been nate that Convention in the month of Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and March, 1842, a period of fifteen years during the period the noble Lord opposite from the time it was entered into. Brazil held the same office. The House will thought fit to give notice of her intention find that repealed exhortations were ad. to terminate that subsidiary Convention, dressed to the Brazilian Government, for and this Government thought fit to accede the purpose of inducing them to enter 10 such desire on the part of the Brazilian into amicable concert with us, and to Government. But there remained in force enable us to search Brazilian vessels, and the original Article of the Treaty of 1826, to punish those who were engaged in the and the object of this measure is to give Slave Trade under that Act which had effect to the stipulations of that Treaty. been agreed to by the Brazilian GovernA great part of the hon. Gentleman's ment of its own free will. But those speech appeared to be in favour of the efforts have failed. The Brazilian Go. abandonment of all policy on our part for vernment have from time to time distinctly the suppression of the Slave 'Trade. The stated to us, that her views on this subject hon. Gentleman says, imputations are are entirely at variance from ours, and thrown out on the faith and integrity of from the Brazilian Government we can this nation, and that on that account we expect no assistance or co-operation in ought to be particularly careful how we the suppression of the Slave Trade by ber interfere wiib ihe rights of other countries. own subjects. Shall we then altogether No doubt such imputations are thrown abandon our efforts ? Shall we hold the out, and thrown out from interested mo. Convention of 1826 to be of no effect; tives. There is no doubt a desire to de- and, notwithstanding that international preciate the character and paralyse the engagement between the Brazils and this exertions of this country in the suppression country, shall we permit Brazilian subof ihe Slave Trade; but I think the sacri-jects and ships to carry on the African fices this country has made for the miti- Slave Trade without any independent gation of the evils of the Slave Trade, and effort on our own part to suppress it? for the termination of the status of the First, I say, that the Brazils themselves Slave Trade, may enable her safely to have admitted that this country, under the defy all such unjust suspicions. The hon. Convention of 1826, has a right of its own Gentleman says, ihere was a time when authority, failing other engagements enthis country herself carried on the Slave tered into with the Brazils, to suppress Trade, and the bishops in the House of lihe Slave Trade carried on by Brazilian Lords made speeches in its favour. The subjects. The hon. Genileman will obfact may be so; but does the hon. Gen- serve in the correspondence that has taken tleman think that that constitutes an ar- place, in a note presented by the Brazilian gument why we should relax in the efforts ; Government, that at an early period subwe have made for the suppression of the sequent to the last Convention, Brazil Slave Trade? The Government proposes i expressly considered that under the Conthis measure with regret. It would have , vention of 1826, this country had a right been infinitely more satisfactory to them to interfere for the suppression of ihe that the Brazils should have consented to | Slave Traue. He will find in page 7 enter into a new engagement in substitu- of the Printed Papers, that in a document tion of the engagement of 1817, and issued by the Brazilian Government, it should have acted in ready concert with was stated that the Government had reus in the suppression of the Slave Trade. ceived from the British Minister an asI bave laid on the 'Table the correspon- surance that certain Brazilian vessels dence that has passed on this subject, and which had been employed in trafficking in I leave it 10 the House to judge whether slaves, but which could prove that on or any effort on the part of Her Majesty's before the 30th day of March, 1830, they Government for the ast ten years has were not so employed, should be allowed been omitted in order to induce the Bra- to proceed and finish their bona fide voyage zilian Government of its own good will to I without incurring the liability of being

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treated as pirates, according to the Con- the responsibility of issuing those orders. vention of '1826.' The hon. Gentleman, But at present the Vice-Admiralty Courts again, will find that the Brazilian Secretary of this country are prohibited from taking of State relied on the Article in the Concognizance of these offences.

At present, vention of 1826, as a proof that the Slave without the intervention of an Act of ParTrade was totally forbidden io Brazilian liament, I apprehend that the Vice-Adsubjects. No law was passed in the miralıy Courts could not proceed to the Brazils at that time, making the Slave adjudication and condemnation of BraTrade piracy; for the Brazilian Secretary zilian vessels ; and it is necessary to proof State said, that the Slave Trade was vide in this case, as you did in the case of abolished, and that the offence was con- Portugal, that the Vice-Admiralty Courts stituted piracy; and, in saying that, he should have that jurisdiction of adjudicawas not speaking of the municipal laws tion and condemnation, with respect to passed by the Brazils, but of the effect of vessels seized on suspicion of carrying on ihat Convention which had been signed the Slave Trade, which they would not between this country and the Brazils. have without it. The hon, Gentleman But efforts were made to put an end to tells us to issue the orders on our own rethe Mixed Commission. Objections were sponsibility, and trust hereafter to an Act made to it by the Brazilian Government; of Indemnity. It is infinitely better to but in making those objections, the Mi. ask from Parliament the power of adjudi. nister of the Brazils urged that the con- cation upon vessels that are seized, rather tinuance of the Mised Commission was than to issue orders and leave it in doubt unnecessary; because, under the Conven. whether there be any jurisdiction comtion with England, there was a power on petent to decide upon those points. The the part of the two Governments to sup- hon. Gentleman refers to a speech made, press the Slave Trade, by making it an and a protest entered into, by my noble offence cognizable by their own respective Friend in 1839, with reference to the Bill legal tribunals. There was, then, a dis- proposed by the noble Lord, enabling the tinct admission that we had a right to British Government to detain Portuguese treat the offence as piracy, virtually by the vessels concerned in the Slave Trade. law of Brazil. The hon. Gentleman says, 1, for one, seeing there was an indisposihe will not share in the responsibility of lion on the part of Portugal to fulfil the the Government in bringing forward this obligations of her Treaty with this counmeasure. What is the effect of it? We try with respect to the Slave Trade, felt consider that the Crown is empowered to that the noble Lord was justified in the direct the detention of Brazilian vessels. measure he proposed. I saw the unWe have not acted without the fullest de availing altempts he had made to prevail liberation. It was the impression of the on Portugal to fulfil those stipulations noble Lord opposite, than whom none has into which she had entered with this paid more allention to this subject, that on country, and that after benefits received the su pension of the last Convention an from this country, and every diplomatic Act of Parliament would be absolutely effort having failed, I thought ihat the necessary to give effect to the Convention noble Lord was fully justified in calling of 1826 ; and the noble Lord inquired of on Parliament for their assistance. Both me whether it were my intention to pro- Houses have, from time to time, presented pose Bill for that purpose. It is true that addresses to the Crown for the suppreswe did not proceed without mature deli-sion of the Slave Trade, and have assured beration. We approached the subject with the Crown of their willing co-operation great caution and reluctance, for we were in case legislative interference was necesmost anxious that the Brazils should take sary. Those addresses were unanimously the course which Spain took in 1835, and carried, and therefore on the part of the Portugal in 1842, and by mutual stipula- Crown, I think, after the Convention of tions should have enabled us to effect this 1817, I should be abandoning my duty if object. But all we do by this Act is not after those addresses I permitted that siale to give the Crown the power to issue these of things to arise which would arise unless orders, for we think that the Crown has you give to the Vice-Adiniralty Courts the the power to direct the detention of Bra- jurisdiction which this Bill proposes. But zilian vessels, in virtue of the Convention, the noble Lord proposed in the case of and we are prepared to take on ourselves | Portugal an Aci of Parliament expressly

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giving to the Crown the power of issuing munication with the Queen's Advocate, he orders, and enabling the Vice Adiniralty and the other highest authorities in this Courts to exercise those powers. At a country, gave us deliberately their opinion, subsequent period, after some difficulties in that, under that Convention, failing the respect to the first Bill, the House of Lords

agreement and consent of the Brazils acquiesced in what was proposed by the to other measures for the suppression of noble Lord; but the case of the Brazils is the Slave Trade, we were entirely auvery different from the case of Poriugal. thorized in continuing 10 exercise the In the case of Portugal there was no such Right of Search over Brazilian vessels. Treaty as in the case of the Brazils. There The right now reveris to the Crown of was an engagement on the part of Portugil acting under the Convention of 1826 ; that she would co-operate with you ge- and, supported by the advice to which I nerally in the suppression of the Slave have referred, we feel it to be our duty to Trade-that she would pasi a law prohi. abide by it, in so far as to give to the biling the Slave Trade-thatshe would give Admiralty Courts the power of exercising you a Right of Search ; and she engaged the rights conferred by that Conventioo.

a io do various things which she did not I think the hon. Gentleman cannot comdo, and entered into various stipulations plain that I have thrown any difficulty in which she did not perform, and ihe noble the way of the production of all the Papers Lord asked for the interference of Parlia. which, consistently with my sense of pubment to compel Portugal to do that which lic duty, I could lay before the House. The British Crown had required of her, He will see that, in the last combut which she refused 10 do. But that munication we made to the Brazilian was a casus belli. The noble Lord thought Government, there is an expression of the conduct of Portugal justified the Crown, deep regret that considerations of public first in making the most urgent diplo dury mpel us to propose this measure, matic remonstrances, and, those failing, and an assurance that we shall have the then to call on Parliament to compel utmost satisfaction in proposing to ParliaPortugal to enter into her engagements. ment its repeal, if-influenced by the Act If the hon. Gentleman refers to the pro- of the noble Lord in 1839-the Brazils test of my noble Friend, he will see that shall enter into a Treaty with us, not for it proceeded upon those grounds: because the suppression of slavery, not for interThe Constitution of this country and the ference with any institutions in the Brazils, usual practice had been to leave it to the i but for the purpose of giving effect to the Sovereign, acting on the advice of Her original engagement of 1826. We have Ministers, to come to a decision upon all waited to the last ; for a series of years we questions of peace and war; and to carry have implored the Brazils 10 substitute into execution such measures and to order something efficacious in lieu of this lemsuch operations as Her Ministers proposed. porary measure; al length we feel driven My noble Friend contended that in the to the necessity of interfering ourselves, case of Portugal it was a casus belli— that to enforce the exercise of our right. But, the Crown ought to have proceeded upon at the same time, while we intend to exerits own imperial authority, and declared cise that right for ourselves, we accomwar against Portugal to compel her to pany the intimation of our intention with perform her engagements. But this is not an earnest exhortation to the Brazils to a casus belli, it is a casus fæderis. There relieve us from this necessity, by entering are stipulations by the Brazils with this into amicable engagements with us on the country expressly declaring that carrying subject. The hon. Member for Manchester on the Slave Trade by Brazilian subjecis says that this measure is imperfect, be should be piracy; we therefore do not ask cause some alterations were proposed by Parliament 10 enable us to declare war me in Committee, into which the House against the Brazils. We are content under went pro formå the other night. But the Convention, after taking the advice of what was the alteration that was then the highest authorities in this country, made? It was simply this :- As the Mixed including my lamented Friend Sir W. Commission, with the consent of the two Follett, whose name I shall never mention parties, are to continue their operations without a feeling of respect for his memory for six months, in order to preclude any as that of a most distinguished man. After doubt as to the validity of their decisions, the best consideration, and after com- a clause was inserted giving to the deci




sions of that Commission all the force Mr. Hutt believed that if this Bill were which their decrees had under the former passed its effect would be, in the course of Convention. As the period for which two years, to destroy all commercial interthat Commission is to sit, is continued be. course between this country and the yond the term specified in the original Brazils. Although this measure might, to

| Convention, the object of that clause was some extent, prevent the Brazilian flag merely to solve a doubt which might have from affording protection to the Slave arisen as to the validity of their subse- Trade, he believed hon. Gentlemen were quent decrees. I also introduced into mistaken if they supposed it would have this Bill the usual clauses—similar to those the effect of preventing that trade from contained in the Portuguese Act, and in being carried on to the same extent as at every other measure of the same nature- present. His conviction was, that this enabling the Lords of the Treasury to measure would not diminish the Slave award io vessels which succeed in cap. Trade; and in a fruitless attempt to effect turing slave-ships a proportion of prize that object the Government were sacrimoney. These clauses, being regarded as ficing some of the best interests of this money clauses, were omitted in the other country, and bringing us to the very verge House of Parliament; and it became my of war, or, at least, placing us in circumduly to propose their insertion in the stances which it would be the highest Committee in this House. I think, there- wisdom to avoid. He therefore felt it his fore, that the hon. Gentleman's charge, duty to oppose this Bill. that this Bill has been got up with such

Viscount Palmerston : As I cannot conhaste as to render considerable alteration cur in the views of many hon. Gentlemen necessary, is, so far as it regards the near me, I am quite prepared to give Goalterations to which I have referred, alto- verpment my support as to the Bill now gether unfounded. I am not aware that under the consideration of the House ; there is any other point 19 which it is ne- indeed, I have no other course to pursue, cessary for me to refer. The correspon- having, as the right hon. Baronet has redence I have already laid on the Table minded me, been the first to suggest that will probably afford sufficient explanation this course should be pursued. Let us see of the circumstances under which the Bill how we stand. There exists a Treaty, conwas prepared. I again repeat, that it is cluded in 1826. Now, the question for the with reluctance I propose this Bill; and I House to consider is, whether that Treaty trust that the necessity of continuing it is to be allowed to remain a dead letter; and will be reinoved by the voluntary act of whether all that was to be accomplished the Brazils, in entering into a Treaty with under it, and by it, is to be permitted to us similar to the Treaties we have con

remain unfulfilled or whether this House cluded with Spain and Portugal. I can

is to take such measures as it can, in order assure the hon. Gentleman I shall have to carry it into practical execution? Parmuch greater pleasure in recommending

liament has repeatedly addressed the Exthe repeal of this Bill, than I now have in ecutive since the year 1814, urging the proposing it to the House. The negotia- Powers-pointing out the object of these

Crown to conclude Treaties with Foreign Lion with the Brazils—not for a tariff, bat Treaties to be the suppression of the Slave for a commercial treaty, is still making

Trade-and, in some cases, suggesting the progress : and if I felt that any good ob

means by which they were to accomplish ject could be promoted, or the success of the pending negotiation advanced, by the utterly disgraceful to the country if Trea

the purposes in view. Now, it would be

, further production of Papers and instruc-ties so concluded were allowed to be viotions, I would readily consent to lay them lated by the bad faith of the Governments before the House. The instructions I have with whom they were contracted. I am already produced will, I think, afford sorry, Sir, to say, that it is impossible to proof that I have been desirous to lay state in exaggerated terms the just accuupon the Table such information, bearing, sation against the Brazils, of bad faith as to in my opinion, immediately upon the sub- the Conventions agreed to by it, respectject, as I could do consistently with my ing the Slave Trade. It is true, that the public duty: but I regret that I cannot Government of which I was a Member did, consent to produce the instructions issued during the ten years we were in office, to Mr. Ellis alluded to by the hon. Gen urge, year after year, by every possible tleman opposite.

argument, the Government of the Brazils to VOL. LXXXII.

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