am

by the reports which had reached him, and correctness of the report, because he had by not knowing that the questions put to himself taken a note of what he had said the witnesses were the questions suggested which note he must have taken after the by the petitioner. But the question of speech was made; because it was added which he so much complained was a per- that he had stood up to speak wholly unfectly justifiable question, and it imputed prepared with what he was to say- and no kind of impropriety to him, but merely that he had afterwards compared this note referred to his having been canvassed for with what had been published in the newson some other occasion, for some other situ- papers. He found his own note and the ation or appointment. It also appears in newspaper account fully to tally. No this statement, that, in alluding to the doubt he did. I am quite sure they talsuppression of evidence, he did not refer lied. Unless there happened to be an to Mr. Parkes at all, but to some other error in the press, they were sure to tally. persons; though that, too, must bave And I will tell also of another tally. The been under a total mistake, as no evidence Times and the Morning Chronicle have had been suppressed, every word given in been compared in this matter ; and they, evidence having been reported and printed, too, have tallied precisely in words. There except what had been stated by Mr. is, therefore, I think, no doubt of how the Parkes, and which was not evidence at all. speech got into the newspapers. Now, The same individual is stated to say—and one word more. I must say that I take I believe correctly to say—that he was for granted that this statement, as the exceedingly sorry he had given any pain newspapers represented it, was not at all to any individual, alluding to me; but I the stateinent made elsewhere. I am sure the only pain the words gave me, bound to conceive that such "privilege” was the pain of being obliged to talk be authorities as the House of Commonsfore your Lordships of a subject connected holding, as they appear to do, the doctrine with myself; for never could there be of privilege so highly-could never have anything so absurd as the charges made. allowed anything of that kind to have As it would appear that he had been been uttered in their presence, if they had under a total misapprehension of the mat- heard it. But still less can I imagine that ter, and exceedingly sorry that any pain that House could have allowed hours to should have been given to me, I am quite have passed away next day, after having sure, such being the case, that I may an- read, as of course they must, what had ticipate the decision to which your Lord been printed in the newspapers, as having ships are likely to come ; and I would, been said in their presence ; and, theretherefore, wish to suggest, whether it fore, I cannot, for the life of me, believe would not be better not to discuss farther for one moment that the newspaper acthe question as to whether this be a breach count-pretending to be an account of of privilege or not, but rather to proceed what passed in the other House last night no farther with it. My opinion is, that -is true; that nobody had got up to you ought never to proceed with ques- complain of what was printed as having tions of privilege of this nature; but that I been spoken in their presence, and which even such of your Lordships as differ from was admitted to be the grossest libelme as to the length to which I would carry until rather latish in the day, when the this principle, will, I believe, under the party himself stood up, and made his statecircumstances of the case, and allowing for ment. I take it for granted, the House of the great irritation of the party, concur in Commons, on seeing what had been pub. the course which I now recommend, of lished, would, for its own protection, and not proceeding farther in it, leaving it, of out of common courtesy to your Lordships, course, still open to me to prosecute the have at once taken notice of it. I cannot parties by a criminal information if I conceive the House of Commons to have please, that is, the parties who published acted otherwise ; and I cannot believe that this libellous attack ; because it is no pro- it acted in the way in which it was this tection to them to say that the words were morning represented to have acted, One spoken in Parliament, even if they had word more, and I close my speech. One been spoken there, which I do not say was of the papers which published the libel,

The Member in question is and which is now liable to prosecution for stated to have said, that having seen a having done so-the Morning Chroniclestutement in a newspaper, of his having is pleased to say this morning, by way, I made a speech somewhere, he admitted the suppose, of making their conduct appear

a

the case.

a

better, that though I rendered a great justice would suggest, that men ought not service to the public, with the help of your io be judges and parties at the same time. Lordships— for some little credit is really The Earl of Wicklow said, now that the attributed to your Lordships-in throw- question had been most happily set at rest, ing out the Dublin and Galway Railway he felt obliged to make a remark with Bill, which they suppose I have done, yet respect to the construction that had been that I was greatly to be reprobated for the put upon what had fallen from him on the manner in which I did it ; for that, being last evening when the subject had been a judge in the case, I had prejudged it, before the House. His object in suggestbefore I acted upon the Committee that ing that the editor and printer of the news. reported against it, and threw it out. It paper be called to the bar, was not for so is a gross slander-a gross breach of privi- unjust and unconstitutional a proceeding lege- to make such an assertion. 'I do as to call the printer or reporter to the not apply against the newspaper for saying bar, and ask them about the accuracy of so. I leave it in your Lordships' hands to the report, with a view to punish them decide whether you will choose to enforce for a breach of privilege, when they had your Lordships' privileges consistently in been made to criminate themselves; but every case, to use it now and then, by way his intention was to give his noble Friend of relaxation. Now, I was not a Member an opportunity of changing the whole of the Committee on this Bill; I could not, proceedings from a question of privilege therefore, have prejudged the Bill. I had into one for the decision of a court of cri

a nothing whatever io do with it. I never minal jurisprudence; and if the question gave an opinion one way or another upon had not been settled in a satisfactory man. it; and, for all these slanderers knew, I ner that evening, he would have persisted may have been in favour of it. It is not in moving that these parties be called up only not true that I got the Bill thrown for the purpose of getting such evidence out; but the Report was not even made, from them as would have enabled his noand the Bill is actually not yet thrown out. ble Friend to clear his own character elseSo much for the slander, that I had

pre

where. He begged to add, with rejudged the Bill, and had got it thrown out spect to the responsibility of editors and of your Lordships' House ; and so much reporters, that he considered it would be for the value of contemporary history. I the grossest injustice and the most unprohope I may be allowed to say one word on voked cruelty, if, after allowing these parthese railway jobs. Every hour I live ties to take and publish accurate reports of convinces me more and more, that Parlia- speeches made in Parliament, they should ment will have a duty imposed upon it afterwards hold them amenable for : next Session to clear and protect itself, breach of privilege for doing so. He begged and to protect the public agaiost these to assure the noble Duke (the Duke of railway schemes. Members of Parliament Wellington), that in requiring the parties ought to know in this House they do connected with the newspaper to be know-but all Members of Parliament brought up, it was with no intention of ought to know, that if a man is interested, requiring them to criminate themselves. directly or indirectly, in any railway, or in

Lord Monteagle said, he could not but any other Private Bill, he is the last man

think it was necessary to come to some in Parliament who ought to vote upon it, new arrangement with regard to railway either in the Committee, or in the House deposits. There was also a practice of

. My Orders, as they are called-or the examining witnesses before they were Orders that I succeeded in inducing your sworn, and swearing them on the follow. Lordships to adopt in 1837, respecting the ing day in the lump to all they had been Committee of Five- had introduced the examined about the day before. He greatest practical reform and improvement thought this system was very objectionin this department; and it was one of able; but it was nevertheless a course of these Orders which has had the greatest proceeding which prevailed to a great expractical use, viz., that no Peer shall have tent in the Committees of that House. anything to do with any Bill, either in The Duke of Wellington thought it was Committee or in the House, with which a subject which deserved consideration, he has any connexion whatever. I hope and it should be represented in the proper the same rule is adopted elsewhere; and 1 quarter. am sure it is only a rule which common The Earl of Devon was of opinion that

the Committees should have the power of , chamber of Parliament, and there must be administering the oath.

easy access for Her Majesty, and conveniLord Campbell suggested that such an ent communication between the existing act might also empower the House of House of Commons and the new building. Commons to administer an oath, and might Lord Campbell said, Mr. Barry had abolish the absurd rule which prevented told him that there would be no difficulty so many Bills from originating in the in getting the temporary fittings ready for Upper House.

the accommodation of Her Majesty by the

next Session. ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY- The New Lord Sudeley was aware of the inconveHOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.] Lord Broug- nience experienced in the morning sit. ham, pursuant to notice, rose to move that tings; but he did not think they would be an humble Address be presented to Her better off if they were placed in the new Majesty, praying that she would be gra- building before it was sufficiently finished ciously pleased to give the necessary direc- and warmed. It would be injurious, in tions for having the New House of Parlia- his opinion, to press the matter for one ment ready for the reception of this House year, if in the course of the following year at the beginning of the next Session. they could get in with comfort for a perNothing could exceed the suffering they manency. endured in the morning sittings, sometimes

The Earl of Wicklow supported the from the heat, and at other times from the Motion. He thought they would not get cold. Two or three thousand pounds ex. into the new House for the next five pended in temporary fittings would enable years unless it was adopted. The objectheir Lordships to occupy their new House tion as to the noise of the workmen was by next Session.

of little moment, as they must leave work Lord Wharncliffe said, that there would in the winter months before their Lordbe great inconvenience in acceding to the ships would commence their sittings, and Motion of his noble and learned Friend. in the summer they ceased working at six It was impossible that the ventilation of o'clock. the new House could be completed by the Lord Brougham, in reply, said there next Session; added to which workmen was no probability that the law Lords who would be employed all around them, and had occasion to sit in the early part of the the noise from the chipping of stones and day would attend to the masons when they other operations would be very great. He were hearing counsel ; the walls of the doubled, therefore, whether the new new House would, in fact, be so thick House, with the proposed temporary fit- that they would not hear anything which tings, would be as convenient as the took place outside.

If there was any present.

question about the accommodation for Her Lord Campbell thought if they waited Majesty being complete, he had no doubt the convenience of Mr. Barry, he would that illustrious lady would be pleased to put off till the Greek kalends the day of open and prorogue Parliament by Comtheir assembling in the new chamber. He mission for one year. He could not unhad suffered severely in his health from derstand why the noble Lord (Lord the unwholesomeness of the present house. Wharncliffe) objected to the Motion, unHe would beg to remind their Lordships less there was something behind which of what they suffered during the three they could not comprehend-unless it was nights of the Maynooth debate. It was contemplated in some high quarter to quite unnecessary that they should suffer make the Houses of Parliament subserso much inconvenience, as it appeared, vient, not only to legislative, but pictorial from the evidence given before the Com- purposes. Now, ornament was an excelmittee, that the House might be easily lent thing, but business was of greater imgot ready by next Session.

portance. He should certainly divide the The Duke of Wellington was sorry that House upon his Motion. the noble and learned Lords, for whose On Question, House divided :-Conservices they were so greatly indebted, tents 16; Non-contents 40: Majority 24. suffered so much inconvenience in conse- Resolved in the Negative. quence of the new House not being completed; but he would beg their Lordships LUNATIC ASYLUMS AND PAUPER LUto recollect that the House of Lords was Natics Bill.] Lord Wharncliffe moved not the only consideration, but it was the that this Bill be now read 2a, His Lordship passed rapidly over the clauses of the would send an answer by Messengers of Bill; and said, that as to the objection their own. that the county would have to pay the ex- A short discussion then took place as to pense, the House of Commons represented the regular course of proceeding, and Lord the ratepayers, and they had passed the Coltenham suggested that the Bill ought Bill; and he was convinced that under to be sent back to the Commons, that they this Bill the expenses would be reduced might make their own Amendments. fully one-half. There was an opinion The Lord Chancellor referred to a case amongst some of their Lordships that the which he said was precisely in point, and Bill should be referred to a Committee occurred in 1836, when the Commons reup-stairs; but, if that were done, what quested the expunging of a proviso wrongly hope could there be of the Bill passing inserted in the engrossment of the Marthis Session ? Several counties were wait- riages Bill. The proviso was accordingly ing for the passing of the Bill, and the expunged without sending the Bill back delay would be very injurious. He there to the Commons, and then the Bill, as fore earnestly recommended their Lord- amended, went through its various stages. ships to read the Bill a second time. The Marriage Bill was then in the same

The Duke of Richmond admitted that a stage as the Bill now before the House. Bill of the sort was much required, but he The Earl of Devon said, that the case of objected to the present, because it was a 1836 was then a new precedent, different very bad measure. He, therefore, wished from the mode of proceeding in any former to refer it for amendments, in the first in- instance. stance, to a Select Committee. He did The Lord Chancellor added a reference not know why this anxiety for legislation to a case in 1803, which had been quoted had come upon the Government so sud- and relied upon by Lord Melbourne in denly; why did they think that these 1836, when what was now proposed by pauper lunatic asylums were necessary, the Commons had been done. The other when they themselves sent all the old lu- course would be attended with much in. natic sailors from Greenwich Hospital to convenience. Warburton's, at Bethnal-green, where they Lord Cottenham still recommended that were well taken care of. He also re the Bill be sent back to the Commons as sisted that part of the Bill which threw the more regular course of proceeding. the whole expense upon the county-rates, Lord Wharncliffe moved by which they would be greatly augment- “That the Proceedings already had in the ed. He should have been glad to have said Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics seen a portion charged upon the owners, Bill be vacated, inasmuch as it appears, by and not entirely upon the occupiers of the the Message of the Commons of this Day, ihat soil. To refer it to a Select Committee the Bill as sent up to this House was not the would rather promote the passing of the Bill which had been agreed to by the Commeasure, when it was fit to become law. mons.” After the second reading he should move The said Motion was agreed to : and or. that it be referred to a Select Committee. dered accordingly;

dered accordingly; and the aforesaid On Question, Resolved in the Affirma- clauses were ordered to be expunged; tive. Bill read 2a.

and a Message was sent to the House of The Lord Chancellor suggested that Commons, to acquaint them therewith. the farther proceeding on the Bill should Then the Bill was read 1a. be deferred, as a message was waiting from the Commons, in order to procure

Commons' ENCLOSURE Bill.] Lord the expunging of a clause which had, Stanley, in moving the Second Reading of accidentally and erroneously, been in this Bill, shortly stated its objects, and serted.

expressed the hope that late as it was in After a remark from Lord Beaumont, the Session, looking to the full investigaon the disadvantage of hasty legislation, tion the subject had undergone elsewhere,

The Message from the Commons was and to the difficulty of passing a Bill of brought up, requesting their Lordships to one hundred and fifty clauses through the expunge a clause in press 126, which had other House, amidst the mass of other bubeen erroneously inserted in the engross-siness, their Lordships would assent to the ment of the Bill, the same not forming second reading, and not render it necessary part of the Bill as passed by the Commons. to renew in another Session a measure

Messengers informed that the Lords which had been so fully discussed.

Earl Filzhardinge expressed his regret

from St. Mawes, and Falmouth, for Protection of Oyster

Fishery.-By Sir R. H. Inglis, from Clergy and others of that the Bill should have been introduced

Sussex and Cornwall, for Alteration of Parochial Assessso late in the Session. He did not say ments Act.-By Mr. M. J. O'Connell, from Members of that the Bill was without value ; but Loyal Repeal Association of Ireland, against Removal of

Paupers (Scotland and Ireland) Bill. ---By Mr. F. Scott, there were defects and objections in its

and Mr. Smollett, from Trustees of several Turnpike details which ought to receive the consid- Roads, against Turnpike Roads (Scotland) Bill.-By eration of the House, and he wished par

Mr. M. J. O'Connell, from Members of the Loyal

National Assoctation of Ireland, for Postponement of ticularly to direct their Lordships' atten

Valuation (Ireland) Bil. tion to the 151st Clause, giving retrospective powers to the Commissioners to re- The House met at twelve o'clock. open any former award, and alter any allotment, the lapse of time being no bar to Coal TRADE (Port of London).] On their proceedings. A great deal of in- the Motion of the Earl of Lincoln, the justice might result from such a power, Coal Trade (Port of London) Bill was read and he hoped the subject would receive a third time. special attention in Committee. He

On the Question that the Bill do pass, thought, moreover, that the Bill ought to

Sir James Duke moved the introduction be referred to a Select Committee.

of the following clause :Lord Stanley explained that, although the Commissioners were to be clothed with “Be it enacted, That, from and after the 31st the power the noble Earl had pointed out, day of December next, there shall be allowed yet, as provided by the 153rd Clause, it upon the exportation from the Port of London, could not be exercised without the consent Thames at Staines, of coals exceeding in quan

westward of the City boundary on the River of three-fourths in number or value of the tity in one barge, lighter, or other vessel, parties interested.

twenty tons, which shall not have been landed, Earl Fitzhardinge inquired if the Bill a Drawback of the full amount of all the Rates could not be referred to a Select Com- or Duties which shall have been paid in respect mittee?

of such Coals, subject however to such rules Lord Stanley feared that at this late and regulations as may, from time to time be period of the Session he could not consent made by the Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons to the wish of the noble Earl, but he of the City of London, in Common Council would be happy to confer with the noble Drawback, such rules and regulations to be

assembled, to prevent fraud in respect of such Earl privately, when, perhaps, he might approved of by the Committee of Her Majesbe able to remove his objections.

ty's Privy Council for managing the Affairs of The Bill was then read a second time. Trade; and if the master of any vessel, or any House adjourned.

coal weigher, shall, in any certificate or other

wise, state any circumstance which is not true, HOUSE OF COMMONS. for the purpose of enabling the owner of such

Coals or his agent, to obtain any such Drawback Thursday, July 24, 1845. as aforesaid, or if any lighterman or other MINUTES.] Bills. Public.—2o. Apprehension of or person employed to carry such Coals to their

destination westward of the City boundary on 20. Stock in Trade; Court of Chancery.

the River Thames at Staines, shall not deliver Reported.—Small Debts (No. 3) ; Municipal Districts, etc. the whole quantity of such Coals at some place (Ireland); Real Property (No. 1); County Rates. to the westward of the said boundary, every zo. and passed :-Compensations ; Coal Trade (Port of such master or coal weigher, lighterman, or Private.-- zo. and passed :—Grimsby Docks; South East other person, so offending, shall for every such ern Railway (Branch to Deal and Extension of the South offence forfeit and pay any sum not exceeding Eastern, Canterbury, Ramsgate, and Margate Railway); one hundred pounds." Bolton and Leigh, Kenyon and Leigh Junction, North Union, Liverpool and Manchester and Grand Junction He thought that the great expense to which Railway Companies Amalgamation ; Morden College Es the inhabitants residing to the westward tate; Gildart's (or Sherwen's) Estate ; Lord Monson's Es

of the city boundaries were subjected for Petitions Presented. By Mr. Vesey, from Grand Jury the conveyance of coals from the port of of Queen's County, assembled at the Summer Assizes, London, amounted to as much as the whole 1815, for Alteration of Assize Circuits (Ireland).- By Mr. M. J. O'Connell, from Members of Loyal National freight from Newcastle to London. He Association of Ireland, for Postponement of Bills relating would be one of the last persons to hinder to Ireland.-By Mr. M. J. O'Connell, and the O'Connor Don, from a great number of places, against Colleges or lessen the revenues of the country; but (Ireland) Bill.---By Mr. M. J. O'Connell, from Richard in this instance he was sure that the introScaley Grannell, late an Officer in Her Majesty's Customs, duction of this clause would increase comLondon, for Inquiry into his Case.---By Sir Thomas Wilde, from William Henry Rochfort, for Alteration of merce, and promote the prosperity of the Law relating to Insolvent Estates.-By Sir C. Lemon,

city of London. Under these circumstances,

а

fenders.

London).

tate ; Hawkins's Estate.