a

sary to its true construction. If that be their dealings with land ; and he mentions the case, do not tell me, that this plain the instance of some of them who sold a matter of fact resolves itself into the pro- vast tract of land, upwards of 20,000 position put by the right hon. Gentleman, acres, to Mr. Wentworth, which that genas far as we can know his opinion, from his tleman purchased of them at the eighth report of the sentiments of Lord Stanley part of a farthing an acre. What possible

-- that "here is a plain Treaty, and will resemblance is there between their althe House of Commons or House of Lords leged ownership of these lands, and that ask us to violate the terms of it-to violate of the extensive possessions of the Duke the solemn engagements of the Crown?” of Gordon or Duke of Argyle in the I say, that is not the question. The ques. Highlands? Is there any possible analogy tion to be decided is, what ihe sense is between them? The whole of these lands that is to be attached to the Treaty? What must be vested in the Crown; and in all is the true interpretation to be given to cases where you find such instances of sait? If I wanted farther argument on that vages, deal with them as Sir G. Gipps did. point, I would find it in what we had been What has passed to-night, indeed, gives a told the other day by the right hon. Gen- ! hope for the future, for the Colonial Sectleman (Mr. Gladstone), that the true con- retary has endeavoured to establish struction of the Treaty of Utrecht was not principle which has never been heard of that which appeared on the face of it, but by a civilized people; a principle which a totally different construction. Of this neither in a territory occupied by a civilI am sure, that if you attach the ized people, por in a territory inhabited by construction now sought to be put savages, has ever hitherto been thought of upon this Treaty by Her Majesty's by a Minister of the Crown. The noble Government, you will be doing that Lord's principle was this. They owned which has never before been done. The all these lands; no settler, therefore, could noble Lord at the head of the Colonial obtain a grant of land fairly from the Office may say that the greater part of Crown. If a person proposed to go out of these waste lands are as much private this country, not to Auckland or other property as are the Highlauds of Scot- part less disturbed, and asked a grant of land. Is there the least resemblance be- land from the Crown, he would not obtain tween the two? Commissioner Spain said it, because he would be told nearly all of that in the Middle Island there were mil- it belonged to the savage tribes. But, lions of acres available for the purposes of then, there was another way which had cultivation on which human foot had never been pointed out; it was, that there trod. Here in this island, as large as should be a mediation-that the CommisEngland, inhabited by about 1,500 mem- sioner, Mr. Spain, should mediate between bers of a savage tribe, was there anything those savage tribes and the New Zealand resembling the Highlands of Scotland Company or their settlers. Now, if that You must take one of two courses in was to be an award in the way in which it this case. You must say that New Zea- was usually understood that there were land shall be treated as inhabited by a arbitrators to be appointed, that the two civilized people; and then, as at the Cape parties asked these arbitrators to decide of Good Hope or any other ceded Colony, between them, and agreed that their award declare the vast tracts of waste land are should be final, that would afford some vested in the Crown, and which it alone ground for thinking that there might be a can dispose of; or you must treat the settlement of the question ; that might people of that country as Sir George Gipps induce some people to say, on looking over did the natives in a neighbouring Colony, the map of the world, “I won't go and and must apply the principle of Vattel, settie in Canada ; I won't go and settle in who alleged that savages could only hold South Australia or Port Louis; but I will the land they occupied, and beyond that try ny fortune in New Zealand.” But they should have no favour whatever. when they came to ask, however, what this Perhaps these people rather more nearly was, they would be told that the arbitrator approach to civilization, and have a little was to decide that a certain sum, say a more knowledge of government than sum of 3001., was to be paid to certain savage other savages; but it is too much to say tribes for so much land ; but after he had that they should be regarded as civilized decided this, the noble Lord said, “ I must people. Sir G. Gipps said that they had be fully satisfied that these savages are no kuowledge of what they were about in I content with that award !” And every

1021 New Zealand JULY 23}

body knew how difficult it was to satisfy | with kindness and protect their rights.
their minds. The House knew that after For them, and for the promotion of their
Mr. Commissioner Spain had made certain interests, he is bound to sacrifice his time,
of these awards, they were not accepted his reputation, and, if necessary, his life.
by the Government. They knew that va- | It is certainly possible that Captain Grey,
rious tribes had different claims. One acting with great judgment, and condem-
head of the tribe came and received a cer- ning the proceeding of the Secretary of
tain sum of money, and said, “I am satis- State, and acting as a friend to the
fied ;” but presently came another chief, islands of New Zealand, may be the in-
and said, “ That tribe had no right what strument of saving the Colony. But this
ever, because I invaded that territory; I is a chance which we have no right to ex-
destroyed, I murdered, the father and mo- peet. Well, then, what is the question
ther, the brothers, and sisters of that before the House? Is it a question solely
chief; and, therefore, I have the preferable as to New Zealand, and is the House to act
claim, and it is me you are to satisfy." at once on its own unbiassed opinion, and
Then there would be fresh objections again, as persons out of doors act, quite irrespec-
and no settler would have the least secu- tive of party considerations ? If this should
rity, or the least foundation to go upon, be the case, the House will at once say
that

any of the land would be granted to that the policy pursued towards New Zeahim according to that award. Well, then, land is monstrous, and must be abandoned. with regard to that question which he But, when we come to consider this queshad just mentioned to the House, was not tion here, it is treated as a question of the case this—that any persons in this party politics; and when the right hon. country, instead of going either to the Baronet says that he identifies himself New Zealand Company or to the Govern- with the Secretary of State, and calls upon ment, or to the Emigration Commissioners, the House to concur with him, no doubt and saying, “ I should like to go out, and New Zealand will be sacrificed, and party 300 men with me, and I should take some interests will be regarded. But the time capital with me, and here are ten or fifteen will come when the right hon. Gentleman others who have considerable capital who will be obliged to change his policy with will go with me, and we hope to form a respect to this Colony, as he was obliged flourishing settlement in New Zealand ;" | to change it with regard to matters nearer instead of saying that, would they not go home. I recollect that the noble Lord, to the Emigration Commissioners and say, whose conduct I now call in question, was

you tell us how we can get land in instrumental in bringing in a Bill intended Canada West, or Canada East, or South to aifect the government of a inost imAustralia, or Van Diemen's Land, or Port portant part of the Empire, and which Philip; only of all places, I will not buy land dealt with the elective franchise for that in New Zealand? There is no confidence purpose; and by his play the whole of the to be placed in the Government which is people were to be placed at the mercy of a there established. There is no confidence small part of the landlords. This was the to be placed in the instructions of the Co- great measure of his policy towards that lonial Secretary.” Would that or would part of the Empire, and it was your policy it not be the fact for a considerable period then to support him. Did you persevere to come? Is not this a fact worthy the in this policy? The right hon. Gentleman, consideration of the House? I can con- when he came into office, said that such ceire Captain Grey disregarding his in- a measure would be most unjust, and that structions, and, in a better spirit than was he would not sanction a measure of such manifested at home, determine not to carry injustice; although he had formerly supthem out-although he knew that this ported it. As for the taunts with respect might be attended with his recall—but in to New Zealand, the change of policy may a patriotic spirit would act so as to secure

The subject may be the welfare of the Colony, and as his trifled with for some time, as there will not judgment would dictate to him, to ar- be vast multitudes assembled, such as rest the mischief which threatens it. He affected your policy towards another part must treat the natives with kindness; of the kingdom ; but, depend upon it, the but not in a way to appear to be fright time will come when the right hon. Genened into submission to them; he must tleman, acting on the convictions of his prevent any acts of oppression towards own mind, will determine not to sacrifice them; he must also treat the settlers an important Colony to feelings of pique

“ Can

Dot

come SO Soon.

and pride ; but will resolve that New Zea. | Halford, Sir H. Nicholl, rt. hon. J. land must be governed according to the Hamilton, C. J. B. Northland, Visct. principles of common sense. But, in the Hamilton, W. J. Ossulston, Lord mean time, you expose the Colony to the Hamilton, Lord C. Packe, C. W. greatest risks; if you agree to-night, that Herbert, rt. hon. S.

Ilarris, hon. Capt. Pakington, J. S. nothing shall now be done, you will impose Hope, hon. C.

Palmer, R. the task on individual Members to bring Hope, A.

Patten, J. W.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R. Motions forward on this subject, till the Hope, G. W.

Peel, J. House is prepared to act in a better spirit, Hotham, Lord Pennant, hon. Col. and then the Colony of New Zealand Holdsworth, T. Pringle, A. will expand in a way which many

of Hussey, A.

Pusey, P. its most ardent friends did not contem

Hussey, T.

Rashleign, w. plate.

Inglis, Sir R. H. Richards, R. Mr. G. W. Hope, in explanation, said Jocelyn, Visct.

Jermyn, Earl

Rolleston, Col. that on the first occasion that he had Johnstone, Sir J.

Round, J.

Rous, hon. Capt. addressed the House, he stated distinctly Jones, Capt.

Sanderson, R. that one of the grounds of Captain Kemble, H.

Sandon, Visct. Fitzroy's recall was his conduct - his Lefroy, A.

Seymour, Sir H. B. want of firmness — towards the natives Lennox, Lord A. Smith, A. in the first proceedings in the Bay of Lincoln, Earl of

Liddell, hon. H. T. Smith, rt. hn. T. B. C Islands in September last.

Smythe, Sir H. The House divided on the Question, Lowther, Sir J. H.

Lockhart, w.

Somerset, Lord G. that the words proposed to be left out Lowther, hon. Col.

Spooner, R.

Spry, Sir S. T. stand part of the Question :- Ayes 155 ; Lygon, hon. Gen. Sturt, H. C. Noes 89 : Majority 66.

Mackenzie, T. Taylor, E.

Mackenzie, W. F. Thesiger, Sir F. List of the Ares.

Maclean, D.

Thornhill, G.
McNeill, D.

Trench, Sir F. W. A'Court, Capt. Collett, W, R.

Manners, Lord C. S. Trevor, hon. G. R.

Martin, C. W.
Acton, Col.
Corry, rt. hon. H.

Trollope, Sir J.

Nasterman, J.
Antrobus, E.

Vernon, G. H.
Cripps, W.

Maxwell, hon. J. P.
Arbuthnott, bon. H. Damer, hon. Col.

Vesey, hon. T.
Arkwright, G.

Meynell, Capt.
Darby, G.

Wellesley, Lord C.

Morgan, o.
Baillie, H.J.
Denison, E. B.

Williams, T.P.
Baird, W.
Dickinson, F. H.

Mundy, E.M. Wood, Col. T.

Neeld, J.
Baldwin, B.
Dodd, G.

Wortley, hon. J.S.

Neeld, J.
Baring, T.
Douglas, Sir H.

Yorke, hon. E. T. Baring, rt. hon. W.B. Douglas, J. D.S.

Neville, R.
Benbow, J.
Duckworth, Sir J.T.B. Newport, Visci.

Newdegate, C.N. Young, J.
Bentinck, Lord G. Duncombe, hon. 0.

Baring, H.
Blackburne, J.l. East, J. B.
Boldero, H. G. Eastnor, Visct.

List of the Noes.
Borthwick, P.

Egerton, W. T.
Borfield, B.
Entwisle, W.
Aglionby, H. A.

Dennistoun, J.
Bowles, Adm.
Escoit, B.
Aldarn, W.

Duke, Sir J.
Bradshaw, J.

Estcourt, T. G. B. Anzon, hon. Col. Duncan, G.
Bramston, T. W. Farnham, E. B. Baring, rt, hon. F. T. Dundas, Adm.
Brisco, M.
Feilden, W.

Barnard, E. J. Dundas, F.
Broadley, H.

Filmer, Sir E. Berkeley, hon. Capt. Esmonde, Sir T. Broadwood, H. Fitzroy, hon. II. Bernal, R.

Fielder, J. Bruce, Lord E. Flower, Sir J.

Blake, M. J.

Ferguson, Sir R. A. Bruges, W.H. Forman, T. S. Bouverie, hon. E. P. Fitzroy, Lord C. Buller, Sir J. Y. Fremantle,rt.bn.SirT. Bowes, J.

Forster, M.
Bunbury, T.
Fuller, A E
Bowring, Dr.

Gibson, T. M.
Card well, E.

Gardner, J.D. Brotherton, J. Grosvenor, Lord R. Carew, W. H. P. Caskell, J. Milnej Byng, rt. hon. G. S. Hastie, A. Chapman, A.

Gladstone, rt.hn.W.E. Christie, W. D. Hawes, B.
Chelsea, Visct.
Gladsione, Capt.
Clay, Sir W.

Hill, Lord M.
Cholmondeley,hon.H. Gore, M.

Cobden, R.

Hindley, c. Chute, W.L. W.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Colborne, hn.W.N.R. Hollond, R.
Clifton, J. T.

Graham, rt.hn. Sir J. Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Howard, P. H.
Clive, Visct.
Granby, Marq. of Collett, J.

Howard, Sir R. Clive, hon, R. H. Greene, T,

Denison, W. J.

Hume, J. Cockburn, rt.hn.SirG. Grimston; Visct. Denison, J. E. Hutt, w.

TELLERS.

TELLERS.

Lemon, Sir C. Russell, Lord E. petitions from the promoters of the GuildLeveson, Lord Seymour, Lord

ford, Chichester, and Portsmouth JuncMacaulay, rt. bn. T.B. Sheil, rt. hon, R. L.

tion Railway Bill, complaining that they McTaggart, Sir J. Shelburne, Earl of

bad not been allowed a hearing by the Mangles, R.D. Smith, J. A.

Select Committee of their Lordships' Marjoribanks, S. Somerville, Sir W.M. Mitcalfe, H. Stewart, P. M.

House, now sitting on the Portsmouth Mitchell, T. A.

Strickland, Sir G. Railway projects. There had been three Moffatt, G.

Tancred, H. W Bills referred to one Committee ; and the Morris, D.

Tollemache, J. petitioners complained that they were not Muntz, G. F. Tower, C.

allowed by the Committee to be heard Napier, Sir C.

Troubridge, Sir E. T. against the Atmospheric, or Direct PortsNorreys, Sir D. J. Tufnell, H.

mouth Line. He begged to move that the O'Connell, M.J. Turner, E.

petition be referred to the Conmittee for Ogle, S. C. H. Villiers, hon. C.

consideration. Paget, Col.

Wakley, T. Paget, Lord A. Walker, R.

The Earl of Hardwicke said, the ComPalmerston, Visct. Warburton, H.

mittee were anxious to discuss the case Plumridge, Capt Ward, H.G. in all its bearings, and with the most maPonsonby, ho. C.F.C. Wawn, J. T.

ture deliberation ; but having found a Protheroe, E. Wilde, Sir T.

clause in one of the Bills consenting to a Pulsford, R. Williams, W.

junction between the petitioners' line and Roebuck, J. A.

another line, the Committee felt that they Ross, D. R. Ingestre, Visct.

had no alternative but to act as they had Russell, Lord J. Buller, C.

done ; as otherwise they would be permitMain Question put and agreed to. ting the petitioners to oppose what might

Order of the Day for the House to go be regarded as their own line. into a Committee of Supply read, and the Lord Brougham said, he thought the Committee deferred.

House ought to feel great delicacy in inHouse adjourned at a quarter after one. terfering with any of their Committees,

while the inquiries which those CommitHOUSE OF LORDS,

tees were delegated to make were still

pending. But after the Report of a ComThursday, July 24, 1845. mittee was presented, it would, of course, Minutes.) Sat First–The Lord Churchill, after the Death be quite open to any noble Lord to bring for

ward a Motion on the subject of the manner Public.—1". Stamp Duties; Coal Trade, Port of in which that Committee had discharged London; Fees, Criminal Courts ; Testamentary Dispo sition ; Militia Pay; Lunatics; Lunatic Asylums and its duties, and to require that the Report Pauper Lunatics.

be sent back for reconsiderativn. 24. Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics ; Commons' In

The Earl of Ellenborough said, he had closure ; Merchant Seamen; Lunatic Asylums (Ireland); Fisheries (Ireland); Drainage (Ireland); Unclaimed intended to express the precise opinion Stock and Dividends ; Spirits (Ireland); Excise Duties which had fallen from his noble and learnon Spirits (Channel Islands).

ed Friend. Reported.-Geological Survey.

He did not think any discus30 and passed :-Art Unions; Unlawful Oaths (Ireland): sion should take place on the subject of the

Turnpike Acts Continuance; Militia Ballots Suspension; petition, until the Committee had made Colleges (Ireland).

their Report Private.-1*. Duddeston and Nechells Improvement; Darby Court (Westminster): Manchester and Leeds The Duke of Richmond said, he had Railway ; London and Croydon Railway Enlargement; only moved that the petition be referred to Grimsby Docks.

the Committee. He felt so strongly on qe. Gravesend and Rochester Railway: South Eastern

Railway (Greenwich Extension); Rothwell Prison. the necessity of no party being decided Reported.–Irish Great Western Railway (Dublin to Gal. against without a hearing, that he would way): Severn's Estate ; Yoker Road (No. 2) ; Shrews. be under the necessity of moving that the bury and Holyhead Road. 36. and passed :-Cromford Canal.

Report be recommitted, should the ComPETITIONS PRESENTED. From Magistrates and others, of mittee persevere in not permitting the peti

Ayr, for Adopting certain suggestions relating to the Poor tioners to be heard.
Law Amendment (Scotland) Bill.-From Trustees of
Tewkesbury Severn Bridge and Roads, praying that the Petitions read, and referred to the Se-
Exemption granted to Carriages and Horses conveying the lect Committee on the Bills, but without
Mails in the General Turnpike Acts may be repealed... | leave to be heard.
From Tottenham, for the re-insertion of a Clause in the

of his Father. BILLS.

Field Gardens Bill.

IRISH GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY BILL GUILDFORD AND CHICHESTER Rail- -PRIVILEGE.] Earl Bathurst brought WAY.] The Duke of Richmond presented forward the Report of the Select CommitVOL. LXXXII. {!

2 L

Third

1

am

cour

of P

was

ever

tee appointed to inquire into the charges « 1 brought against the Irish Great Western be po (Dublin and Galway) Railway Company.

Lo The Committee reported that they had

your met and considered the petitions which had

befor been referred to them, and had heard

privi counsel, and had examined witnesses in

a sta support of the allegations in the said pe

part titions; and upon a perusal of the minutes

certa of evidence, and a consideration of the

ion, whole case, the Committee were of opin

proce ion, that most systematic frauds had been that used for the purpose of obtaining the ne- nobl cessary number of signatures to the sub

will scription contract ; that no attention

appeared to have been paid to a proper dis- havi tribution of the letters of allotment; that unauthorized names had been inserted in the contract, and false addresses given; also and that packets of letters were proved to rath have been sent down to country postmas

to

P ters, being applications for shares, with a fi request that they might be returned

that to London through the Post Office. It

dou also appeared that a petition was present, that ed to the House of Commons, but it

in not prosecuted; a sum of 2501. being paid the down to the petitioners, with a promise of a further sum of 5001. on the Bill passing

my the Standing Orders' Committee. Suffi

dec cient evidence was also produced to satisfy this the Committee, that the subscription con

the tract was not entered into bona fide, and

hav the estimated cost of the undertaking was a false one. The Report concluded by

the stating, that the result of their inquiry had induced the Committee to express like

aga their entire concurrence in the Report of

aga another Select Committee of their Lord.

Ch ships' House, that the decision come to by

spe the House of Commons last Session, redu

the cing the amount of deposit money required, had the effect of facilitating the commis

pro

nei sion of fraud; and that the Committee had, under these circumstances, not

poi thought it necessary to proceed with the consideration of all the allegations con- wh tained in the petition of James Pim, jun., or to inquire into the merits of the Bill,

ре. without further instructions from the

TI House.

pa The Earl of Besborough said, the Reporttir was a very peculiar one ; and he thought th it better to give Notice respecting it, that he he would move to-morrow (this day) that is the Bill should not be further proceeded en with.

he Report ordered to be considered to- te morrow; and Notice of Motion given--- he

mei

or

un