body knew how difficult it was to satisfy | with kindness and protect their rights' their minds. The House knew that after For them, and for the promotion of their Mr. Commissioner Spain had made certain interests, he is bound to sacrifice his time, of these awards, they were not accepted his reputation, and, if necessary, his life. by the Government. They knew that va- It is certainly possible that Captain Grey, rious tribes had different claims. One acting with great judgment, and condemhead of the tribe came and received a cer- ning the proceeding of the Secretary of tain sum of money, and said, "I am satis- State, and acting as a friend to the fied;" but presently came another chief, islands of New Zealand, may be the inand said, "That tribe had no right what- strument of saving the Colony. But this ever, because I invaded that territory; I is a chance which we have no right to exdestroyed, I murdered, the father and mo-pect. Well, then, what is the question ther, the brothers, and sisters of that before the House? Is it a question solely chief; and, therefore, I have the preferable as to New Zealand, and is the House to act claim, and it is me you are to satisfy." at once on its own unbiassed opinion, and Then there would be fresh objections again, as persons out of doors act, quite irrespecand no settler would have the least secu- tive of party considerations? If this should rity, or the least foundation to go upon, be the case, the House will at once say that any of the land would be granted to that the policy pursued towards New Zeahim according to that award. Well, then, land is monstrous, and must be abandoned. with regard to that question which he But, when we come to consider this queshad just mentioned to the House, was not tion here, it is treated as a question of the case this that any persons in this party politics; and when the right hon. country, instead of going either to the Baronet says that he identifies himself New Zealand Company or to the Govern- with the Secretary of State, and calls upon ment, or to the Emigration Commissioners, the House to concur with him, no doubt and saying, "I should like to go out, and New Zealand will be sacrificed, and party 300 men with me, and I should take some interests will be regarded. But the time capital with me, and here are ten or fifteen will come when the right hon. Gentleman others who have considerable capital who will be obliged to change his policy with will go with me, and we hope to form a respect to this Colony, as he was obliged flourishing settlement in New Zealand ;" to change it with regard to matters nearer instead of saying that, would they not go home. I recollect that the noble Lord, to the Emigration Commissioners and say, whose conduct I now call in question, was "Can you tell us how we can get land in instrumental in bringing in a Bill intended Canada West, or Canada East, or South to affect the government of a most imAustralia, or Van Diemen's Land, or Port portant part of the Empire, and which Philip; only of all places, I will not buy land dealt with the elective franchise for that in New Zealand? There is no confidence purpose; and by his plan the whole of the to be placed in the Government which is people were to be placed at the mercy of a there established. There is no confidence small part of the landlords. This was the to be placed in the instructions of the Co- great measure of his policy towards that lonial Secretary." Would that or would part of the Empire, and it was your policy it not be the fact for a considerable period then to support him. Did you persevere to come? Is not this a fact worthy the in this policy? The right hon. Gentleman, consideration of the House? I can con- when he came into office, said that such ceive Captain Grey disregarding his in- a measure would be most unjust, and that structions, and, in a better spirit than was he would not sanction a measure of such manifested at home, determine not to carry injustice; although he had formerly supthem out-although he knew that this ported it. As for the taunts with respect might be attended with his recall-but in to New Zealand, the change of policy may a patriotic spirit would act so as to secure not come so soon. The subject may be the welfare of the Colony, and as his trifled with for some time, as there will not judgment would dictate to him, to ar- be vast multitudes assembled, such as rest the mischief which threatens it. He affected your policy towards another part must treat the natives with kindness; of the kingdom; but, depend upon it, the but not in a way to appear to be fright-time will come when the right hou. Genened into submission to them; he must tleman, acting on the convictions of his prevent any acts of oppression towards own mind, will determine not to sacrifice them; he must also treat the settlers an important Colony to feelings of pique and pride; but will resolve that New Zea- | Halford, Sir H. Mr. G. W. Hope, in explanation, said that on the first occasion that he had addressed the House, he stated distinctly that one of the grounds of Captain Fitzroy's recall was his conduct his want of firmness-towards the natives in the first proceedings in the Bay of Islands in September last. The House divided on the Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question :-Ayes 155; Noes 89: Majority 66. Hamilton, C. J. B. Manners, Lord C. S. Damer, hon. Col. Darby, G. Denison, E. B. Morgan, O. Mundy, E. M. Dickinson, F. H. Dodd, G. Neeld, J. Neeld, J. Douglas, Sir H. Baring, rt. hon. W. B. Neville, R. Duckworth, Sir J.T.B. Newdegate, C. N. Duncombe, hon. O. Newport, Viset. East, J. B. Eastnor, Visct. Egerton, W. T. Entwisle, W. Escott, B. Estcourt, T. G. B. Farnham, E. B. Feilden, W. Fremantle, rt.hn.SirT. Fuller, A E Gladstone, rt.hn.W.E. Gladstone, Capt. Cholmondeley,hon. H. Gore, M. Clifton, J. T. Clive, Visct. Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Russell, Lord E. petitions from the promoters of the Guildford, Chichester, and Portsmouth Junction Railway Bill, complaining that they had not been allowed a hearing by the Select Committee of their Lordships' House, now sitting on the Portsmouth Railway projects. There had been three Bills referred to one Committee; and the petitioners complained that they were not allowed by the Committee to be heard Troubridge, Sir E. T. against the Atmospheric, or Direct Ports Mitcalfe, H. Mitchell, T. A. Moffatt, G. Morris, D. Tollemache, J. Muntz, G. F. Tower, C. Napier, Sir C. Norreys, Sir D. J. O'Connell, M. J. Tufnell, H. Walker, R. Warburton, H. Paget, Col. Paget, Lord A. Ward, H. G. Ponsonby, hn. C.F.C. Wawn, J. T. Protheroe, E. Wilde, Sir T. Pulsford, R. Williams, W. Roebuck, J. A. Ross, D. R. Russell, Lord J. TELLERS. Ingestre, Visct. mouth Line. He begged to move that the petition be referred to the Committee for consideration. The Earl of Hardwicke said, the Committee were anxious to discuss the case in all its bearings, and with the most mature deliberation; but having found a clause in one of the Bills consenting to a junction between the petitioners' line and another line, the Committee felt that they had no alternative but to act as they had done; as otherwise they would be permitting the petitioners to oppose what might be regarded as their own line. Lord Brougham said, he thought the House ought to feel great delicacy in interfering with any of their Committees, while the inquiries which those Committees were delegated to make were still pending. But after the Report of a Committee was presented, it would, of course, be quite open to any noble Lord to bring forward a Motion on the subject of the manner in which that Committee had discharged its duties, and to require that the Report be sent back for reconsideration. The Earl of Ellenborough said, he had intended to express the precise opinion which had fallen from his noble and learned Friend. He did not think any discussion should take place on the subject of the petition, until the Committee had made their Report. The Duke of Richmond said, he had only moved that the petition be referred to the Committee. He felt so strongly on the necessity of no party being decided against without a hearing, that he would be under the necessity of moving that the Report be recommitted, should the Committee persevere in not permitting the petitioners to be heard. PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Magistrates and others, of From Tottenham, for the re-insertion of a Clause in the GUILDFORD AND CHICHESTER RAILWAY.] The Duke of Richmond presented VOL. LXXXII. Third Petitions read, and referred to the Select Committee on the Bills, but without IRISH GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY BILL -PRIVILEGE.] Earl Bathurst brought forward the Report of the Select Commit2 L tee appointed to inquire into the charges brought against the Irish Great Western (Dublin and Galway) Railway Company. The Committee reported that they had met and considered the petitions which had been referred to them, and had heard counsel, and had examined witnesses in support of the allegations in the said petitions; and upon a perusal of the minutes of evidence, and a consideration of the whole case, the Committee were of opinion, that most systematic frauds had been used for the purpose of obtaining the necessary number of signatures to the subscription contract; that no attention appeared to have been paid to a proper distribution of the letters of allotment; that unauthorized names had been inserted in the contract, and false addresses given; and that packets of letters were proved to have been sent down to country postmasters, being applications for shares, with a request that they might be returned to London through the Post Office. It also appeared that a petition was present ed to the House of Commons, but it was not prosecuted; a sum of 2501. being paid down to the petitioners, with a promise of a further sum of 500l. on the Bill passing the Standing Orders' Committee. Sufficient evidence was also produced to satisfy the Committee, that the subscription contract was not entered into bona fide, and the estimated cost of the undertaking was a false one. The Report concluded by stating, that the result of their inquiry had induced the Committee to express their entire concurrence in the Report of another Select Committee of their Lordships' House, that the decision come to by the House of Commons last Session, reducing the amount of deposit money required, had the effect of facilitating the commission of fraud; and that the Committee had, under these circumstances, not thought it necessary to proceed with the consideration of all the allegations contained in the petition of James Pim, jun., or to inquire into the merits of the Bill, without further instructions from the House. The Earl of Besborough said, the Report was a very peculiar one; and he thought it better to give Notice respecting it, that he would move to-morrow (this day) that the Bill should not be further proceeded with. Report ordered to be considered tomorrow; and Notice of Motion given "That the further consideration of the Bill be postponed for three months." Lord Brougham: I have now to state to your Lordships - having lately brought before you a case in connexion with the privileges of this House-that I have seen part of the newspaper in question, which a statement, giving an explanation on the certainly greatly confirms me in my opinion, that your Lordships ought not to proceed against the editor or printer of that newspaper; and my noble Friend, the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Wicklow), will forgive me for saying, that there was a misunderstanding with respect to my having ever intimated the propriety of that course. He and I agree on the question of privilege on the whole; and he would also agree with me on the propriety of rather leaving me, as the aggrieved party, to proceed at law by criminal information, if I might so choose. It is quite clear that I might do so, the paper having undoubtedly published a libel: and even if that which the paper stated to have passed in the House of Commons had passed there, that would be no justification whatever for the publication. Therefore, both my noble Friend and myself would have declined calling the parties to the bar of this House, for the purpose of punishing them for a breach of privilege. But I have to add, that it now appears a statement has been made by the same party, in the same paper, and in another paper also, against which it would have been my duty likewise to proceed, if I had proceeded Chronicle, for it has published the same against any paper, namely, the Morning speech, or pretended speech, verbatim, in the same words. I should, therefore, have proceeded against both papers, or against neither. But I have since seen a speech, or statement, in both these papers, purporting to be made by the same individual Member of the other House of Parliament who was represented to have made the unjustifiable speech-a speech which no That Member is made to say, in the same person endeavours even paper-and I have no doubt with his entire concurrence and consent, and I am therefore bound to believe it-that what he said, or rather, I should say, what he is represented to have said, was under an entire misapprehension of the facts; that he was not present in the Select Committee of your Lordships' House, as, of course, he could not be; and that he was misled to extenuate. am by the reports which had reached him, and correctness of the report, because he had by not knowing that the questions put to himself taken a note of what he had said the witnesses were the questions suggested which note he must have taken after the by the petitioner. But the question of speech was made; because it was added which he so much complained was a per- that he had stood up to speak wholly unfectly justifiable question, and it imputed prepared with what he was to say- and no kind of impropriety to him, but merely that he had afterwards compared this note referred to his having been canvassed for with what had been published in the newson some other occasion, for some other situ- papers. He found his own note and the ation or appointment. It also appears in newspaper account fully to tally. No this statement, that, in alluding to the doubt he did. I am quite sure they talsuppression of evidence, he did not refer lied. Unless there happened to be an to Mr. Parkes at all, but to some other error in the press, they were sure to tally. persons; though that, too, must bave And I will tell also of another tally. The been under a total mistake, as no evidence Times and the Morning Chronicle have had been suppressed, every word given in been compared in this matter ; and they, evidence having been reported and printed, too, have tallied precisely in words. There except what had been stated by Mr. is, therefore, I think, no doubt of how the Parkes, and which was not evidence at all. speech got into the newspapers. Now, The same individual is stated to say—and one word more. I must say that I take I believe correctly to say—that he was for granted that this statement, as the exceedingly sorry he had given any pain newspapers represented it, was not at all to any individual, alluding to me; but I the stateinent made elsewhere. I am sure the only pain the words gave me, bound to conceive that such "privilege” was the pain of being obliged to talk be authorities as the House of Commonsfore your Lordships of a subject connected holding, as they appear to do, the doctrine with myself; for never could there be of privilege so highly-could never have anything so absurd as the charges made. allowed anything of that kind to have As it would appear that he had been been uttered in their presence, if they had under a total misapprehension of the mat- heard it. But still less can I imagine that ter, and exceedingly sorry that any pain that House could have allowed hours to should have been given to me, I am quite have passed away next day, after having sure, such being the case, that I may an- read, as of course they must, what had ticipate the decision to which your Lord been printed in the newspapers, as having ships are likely to come ; and I would, been said in their presence ; and, theretherefore, wish to suggest, whether it fore, I cannot, for the life of me, believe would not be better not to discuss farther for one moment that the newspaper acthe question as to whether this be a breach count-pretending to be an account of of privilege or not, but rather to proceed what passed in the other House last night no farther with it. My opinion is, that -is true; that nobody had got up to you ought never to proceed with ques- complain of what was printed as having tions of privilege of this nature; but that I been spoken in their presence, and which even such of your Lordships as differ from was admitted to be the grossest libelme as to the length to which I would carry until rather latish in the day, when the this principle, will, I believe, under the party himself stood up, and made his statecircumstances of the case, and allowing for ment. I take it for granted, the House of the great irritation of the party, concur in Commons, on seeing what had been pub. the course which I now recommend, of lished, would, for its own protection, and not proceeding farther in it, leaving it, of out of common courtesy to your Lordships, course, still open to me to prosecute the have at once taken notice of it. I cannot parties by a criminal information if I conceive the House of Commons to have please, that is, the parties who published acted otherwise ; and I cannot believe that this libellous attack ; because it is no pro- it acted in the way in which it was this tection to them to say that the words were morning represented to have acted, One spoken in Parliament, even if they had word more, and I close my speech. One been spoken there, which I do not say was of the papers which published the libel, The Member in question is and which is now liable to prosecution for stated to have said, that having seen a having done so-the Morning Chroniclestutement in a newspaper, of his having is pleased to say this morning, by way, I made a speech somewhere, he admitted the suppose, of making their conduct appear a the case. 2 ܝܐ 2 |