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cost to his company is the same as if the service were the best, except in a few cases where excessively large or double plated carbons are used to get extra life. Justification for such practice is a question of conscience on the part of the station manager or his directors.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We had this question of lamps all settled, and Professor Thomas comes along and suggests to us that, so far as the watts are concerned, the general public does not care a rap! That they want illumination. That is true. I thought better things of Mr. Peck than what he stated here in regard to our definition of what a 2,000 candle-power light was-meaning nothing at all! Did we not meet, and formally and solemnly resolve that when we agreed to give a 2,000 candle light we would furnish 450 watts ? That met that condition. There ought not to be any question about it. This talk about carbons is very disturbing. The truth of the matter is that candle-power is the measure of light, as it has been established, and we cannot change it, but must make ourselves conform to that in some way. I suppose no better committee could possibly have been selected than was chosen from this body a year ago That committee gave us an arbitrary definition of what a 2,000 candle light should be, and we adopted it. It is time that we should sell our light by watts. We ought to make another test entirely. We ought not to have to compete with gasoline, gas, kerosene, or sunlight, or anything of that kind; but we do. The difficulty is that it is a condition and not a theory, in the language of the late lamented-I mean a gentleman more or less prominent-that confronts us, and we must dispose of that.

I am very much obliged to Professor Thomas for

what he has said here, and I propose to show him that I am much obliged, by making a suggestion; and that is, that he will consider each one of the boys here his pupil for the time, under him in his university, and will let us know who made these carbons, where they came from, and all about it, and let us get the benefit of what he has given us here; because by that means we shall do better service to the people at large. He is under no obligation to secrecy at all, because he tells us how he obtained these things, and obtained them for the purpose of finding out what the illuminating power was. It is something that we want to find out ourselves. In our dealings with the municipality we must have some arbitrary standard, and that we have fixed; and now, what we have arbitrarily fixed as 2,000 candle-power, we want to make 2,005, or 2,010, or 2,015,—to give good measure, if we possibly can; and I trust Professor Thomas will be willing to consider all of us here as students in his university, and we shall then have a perfect right to see the work of the other students.

PROFESSOR THOMAS: Gentlemen, I should be most happy to do so, but I am endeavoring to do good for the public in the institution which was founded for that purpose. I fear that my usefulness in that institution would be much impaired if I should give you the individual names. This is not the first experience of this sort that I have had; and I am sure that the rule I have adopted,-of giving the information impersonally-is the only safe rule for me to follow. It is perfectly easy for you as an association to get data of this sort if you wish it. I do not think it would be right for me to give you the names of the makers of these carbons. It would

be, perhaps, not morally wrong, but it would be considered by the makers commercially wrong; and if you were in their position, I think you would object to the publication of names.

MR. MARKS: A few words with regard to Professor Thomas' remarks. The data submitted by him are certainly interesting and directly in line with reports contained in the paper. We are all aware of the occurrence of the variations he refers to. However, though it is only too true that the candle-power for the same watts may differ fifty or one hundred per cent, or more, with different carbons, yet, for reasons given in my previous discussion, I do not see how the association could be benefited by adopting a standard of candle-power. From a practical standpoint, it seems to me that it would be just as unwise for the central station manager to sell his lamps as 300 or 500 candle-power lamps, as it would be to sell them as I, 200 or 2,000. There is, of course, no doubt of the value of making some measurement of the illumination; and, as has been suggested, the proper place to measure the illumination is at the surface lighted rather than at the lamp. In one case we may find that distribution is the all-important feature, the intensity of the maximum rays being of secondary importance; and in another, vice versa. Though the same amount of energy be supplied in the case of two lamps trimmed with special carbons, one of them, whose candle-power is much less than the other, may be preferable because of the quality of the light.

Before closing, I wish to call your attention to a test in which two carbons, tested for mean hemispherical candle-power, showed 456 and 486 candle-power, respectively. On being tested for

efficiency, they showed 11.71 per cent and 10.01 per cent, respectively. The efficiency referred to here is the radiant efficiency, or ratio of luminous to total radiation. The current in each test was nine amperes, and the potential difference forty-five volts. One of the carbons was a squirted coke carbon, the other a moulded. It will be noted that the carbon showing the higher candle-power had less efficiency. It seems quite probable that in this case the difference in the quality of light explains the discrepancy.



At the last meeting of the association, the rules were carefully revised, and in the opinion of your committee but slight changes could be desired. Recent work of your committee indicates that in the near future meetings will be held with committees of the Underwriters, Street Railway Association, Telephone and other interests, which will be productive of much good, and will enable a very satisfactory report to be made at the next meeting. In view of the above, your committee recommend that the present rules be approved and continued.

W. J. HAMMER, Chairman,






MR. C. J. H. WOODBURY: As the report of the committee is so direct and clear, and the time of the association at this stage of the meeting is so valuable, I do not feel like trespassing upon it with anything in the line of a discussion. This subject is one of infinite detail, which must necessarily be carried out in the hands of committees who can give long and

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