1 4. Judges of the courts of common pleas (except the first judge) and surrogates to be appointed for five years, removable by the senate on the recommendation of the governor, stating the grounds on which such removal is recommended. $5. Attorney general to hold his office during the pleasure of the governor and senate, removable by the latter on the recommendation of the former. $6. Recorders of cities by the same tenure, except that the recommendation of removal shall state the grounds. § 7. Mayors of cities to be appointed annually. $8. Clerks of courts and district attorneys to hold during the pleasure of the courts appointing them. First section read. Carried. Second section read. MR. VAN BUREN moved to strike out "secretary of state." Carried. MR. VAN BUREN moved to strike out the whole section. Carried. Fourth section read. MR. MUNRO moved to strike out the words "except the first judge." After some discussion, Mr. Munro withdrew his motion. It was moved by Mr. NELSON that the fourth section be postponed till to morrow. GEN. ROOT opposed the motion, and so did MR. BRIGGS. Should we be wiser to-morrow than we were to-day? If so, postpone our business till to-morrow. MR. 1. SUTHERLAND was in favour of postponement. It would be better taken in connexion with the judicial report. The question for postponement was lost. It was then again moved to strike out the words "except the first judge." Carried. MR. MUNRO moved to strike out "surrogates." MR. VAN BUREN hoped not; and after some explanation, MR. MUNRO withdrew his motion. Fifth section read. MR. VAN BUREN moved to insert "secretary of state and," before attorney general, their, for his-offices, for office. Carried. GEN. TALLMADGE moved to strike out the words "during the pleasure of," and to insert "for years, unless sooner removed by." Carried. It was then moved to fill the blank with three; and carried. MR. DUER moved to strike out "removable by the latter," &c. Carried. Sixth section read, adopted. Seventh section read and adopted. Eighth section read. GEN. TALLMADGE moved to strike out "pleasure of," and insert "for years, unless sooner removed by." Carried. Moved to fill the blank with three. Carried. MR. TOMPKINS moved to reconsider the fifth section. Agreed to. MR. VAN BUREN offered the following resolution: "That the secretary of state and attorney general hold their respective offices for three years from the time of their appointment, unless sooner removed by the senate on the recommendation of the governor." Carried. JUDGE VAN NESS moved to reconsider the sixth section. Agreed to. He further moved to reconsider the fourth section, for the purpose of inserting "recorders of cities," after the words "courts of common pleas." Agreed to, and the insertion made accordingly. GEN. TALLMADGE proposed to reconsider the second section. Agreed to. He then moved to strike out the words "during the pleasure of," and insert "for years, unless sooner removed by." Carried. He proposed to fill the blank with three years. Carried. The question was then on filling the blank in Mr. Duer's amendment respecting justices of the peace. It was proposed to fill the blank with three years. MR. MUNRO thought it would be better to leave the time of meeting indefi nite. It was not necessary to turn out and appoint at stated times, but merely to fill up vacancies. THE CHIEF JUSTICE thought it would be well for the meeting for general purposes to be once in three years to fill vacancies, as often as necessary. MR. VAN BUREN moved to postpone the further consideration of the clause till to-morrow. MR. SHELDON proposed to amend in such manner, that the judges of the courts of common pleas should be elected by the people. The question was taken by ayes and noes, and decided in the negative as follows: AYES-Messrs, Baker, Brinkerhoff, Brooks, Hurd, N. Sanford, Sharpe, Sheldon, E. Webster, Young---9. NOES-Messrs. Bacon, Barlow, Beckwith, Birdseye, Breese, Briggs, Buel, Burroughs, Carpenter, Carver, Child, D. Clark, Clyde, Collins, Cramer, Day, Dubois, Duer, Dyckman, Eastwood, Edwards, Fairlie, Fenton, Ferris, Frost, Hallock, Hees, Hogeboom, Howe, Humphrey, Hunt, Hunter, Hunting, Huntington, Jay, Jones, Kent, King, Lansing, Lefferts. Livingston, M'Call, Millikin, Moore, Munro, Nelson, Park, Paulding, Platt, Porter, President, Price, Pumpelly, Radcliff, Reeve, Rhinelander, Richards, Rockwell, Root, Rosebrugh, Ross, Russell, Sage, Sanders, R. Sandford, Schenck, Seeley, I Smith, R. Smith, Spencer, Stagg, Starkweather, Steel, D. Southerland, I. Sutherland, Swift, Sylvester, Tallmadge, Taylor, Ten Eyck, Townsend, Tripp, Tuttle, Van Buren, Van Horne, Van Ness, J. R. Van Rensselaer, Van Vechten, Ward, A. Webster, Wendover, Wheaton, E. Williams, N. Williams, Woods, Wooster, Yates--97. MR. TOMPKINS then renewed the motion of Mr. Van Buren, that it be postponed till to-morrow. MR. VAN BUREN proposed to reconsider the 8th section on military appointments. Agreed to. He then moved to strike out the word "militia" before officers, that the appointment of civil, as well as militia officers, might be by the governor, during the recess of the senate. MR. E. WILLIAMS opposed, and it was lost. GEN. ROOT said the question before the Convention would be on the whole clause-which he moved to have stricken out. Carried. CHANCELLOR KENT proposed to reconsider the 4th section on civil appointments. Agreed to. The committee then rose, reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again. In Convention, on motion of Mr. Radcliff, ordered, that the report, as amended, be printed. Carried. MR. YATES moved that the committee of the whole be discharged from the further consideration of the report on the appointing power, and that it be referred to a select committee, and offered a resolution to that effect. The motion was opposed by Messrs. Van Buren and Van Vechten, and lost. And the supervisors and judges of the court of common pleas, (except in the city and county of New-York,) shall in like manner appoint the several officers following, to wit:-auctioneers, coroners, inspectors of turnpike roads, and inspec tors of beef and pork, &c. Which said officers may be removed, and vacancies from time to time filled, in like manner, as is provided in relation to justices of the peace. GEN. TALLMADGE moved that the report of the committee on the legislative department, be made the order of the day to-morrow-Carried. MR. FAIRLIE offered the following resolution. Resolved, That the 19th article of the constitution of this state, ought to be abolished Resolved, That it be referred to a committee to consider and report to the Convention, what provision be proper to be adopted in relation to the appointment of senators of the United States. Referred to the committee, of which Mr. Radcliff is chairman. MR. N. WILLIAMS offered the following resolution: " that the secretary of state be required to lay before the Convention, a list of the civil officers in the city of New-York." Ön motion of Mr. Root, Adjourned. THURSDAY, OCTOBER 11, 1821. The President took his seat at the usual hour, and no chaplain being present, the minutes of yesterday were read and approved. The following communication was received from the secretary of state, pursuant to the resolution of yesterday: STATE OF NEW-YORK, Secretary's Office, Albany, October 11, 1821. Sir-In obedience to a resolution of the honourable the Convention of this state, of yesterday, requesting me "to lay before them a list of the civil officers in the city of New-York," I have the honour of submitting to them, through you, the enclosed list of the civil officers, holding their commissions in that city, under the council of appointment.-Some of the officers in that list may have ceased to act, or are disqualified from acting; but there is nothing in the possession of this department, enabling me to ascertain their number. I have the honour to be, very respectfully, your obed't. servant. The Hon. DANIEL D. TOMPKINS J. V. N. YATES, Secretary of State. A list of the civil officers in the city of New-York, under the council of appoint ment. On motion of Mr. Sheldon, the foregoing communication was referred to the committee of the whole, when on the appointing power, and on motion of Mr. Van Ness, ordered to be printed. THE LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. The Convention then resolved itself into a committee of the whole on the report of Mr. King, from the committee on the legislative department. [Vide page 141.]-Mr. Van Buren in the chair. MR. KING explained the views and principles by which the committee, of which he is chairman, were governed in making their report. He presumed, the committee would take up the several branches of the report in their order: the first section related to a branch of the constitution already established, and would require no explanation or arguments in favour of its adoption; it proposes, that the number of members of the senate and assembly remain as established. The state is at present divided into four senatorial districts; the whole number of senators is thirty-two, who are divided into four classes, to the end that one-fourth part of the whole number may be elected annually; giving each district a voice in the new representation. This number is adequate to serve as a check upon the other branch of the legislature. He was not aware, that it would be wise to alter the number. With respect to the assembly, he must confess, it would be more agrecable to his feelings and views of government, if the number were less than that to which it might hereafter arrive, viz. one hundred and fifty. At present the number stands at one hundred and twenty-six; it is probable, at the time of the next apportionment, it will amount to one hundred and forty; On this subject he would submit one or two remarks. There was no precise rule established as to the proportion between the electors and the elected; there were considerations, however, on this subject, which might be worthy of some attention. It had been shewn, in this country as well as in others, that the number could be too far extended for the convenience of debate and deliberative discussion; and large bodies of men were more liable to run into extremes of passion and zeal, than bodies less numerous. He was inclined to believe, that a body, not exceeding the present number of the assembly, (one hundred and twenty-six,) was sufficient for any valuable purpose; as well with respect to local as general interests, which would naturally come before the legislature. The local districts, which they would represent, were not so large but they might bring together all the necessary information concerning their respective interests and desires. When assembled, they would be numerous enough to deliberate and determine with propriety upon the relative merits of general and local claims. The congress of the United States was, in his opinion, too numerous for convenience in doing business. The experience of every gentleman must have shown, that the larger the body of men, the more liable they were to cabals and factions. Another consideration:-There is not, perhaps, a country in the world where they have so many legislators engaged in making laws, as in the United States. When we look at the individual states and the general government, we find the amount of legislation far exceeding that of any other part of the world: it is salutary and advantageous to the community, periodically to compare all the different circumstances arising out of the various interests in society, and to provide for contingencies which must occur. The representatives of the people, by communicating with each other, bringing together the various views of the local districts which they represent, and comparing them with the large interests of the state, derive mutual benefit from each other-each becoming acquainted with the condition of every other portion of the community. As small a number as can consistently effect all these objects would be desirable, as the expense must increase in proportion to the number. This body of men are important, not only as it respects their power of making salutary laws, but they have the control of the treasury and property of the state; and it has sometimes happened, that they have made a more free use of the public funds than was deemed expedient by the people. Too small a number ought not to be entrusted with these important concerns, and if the number is increased it will necessarily increase the expense accordingly. From these considerations it has seemed proper to the committee to recommend the amendment of 1801, as a part of the constitution which we are about to form--that the number of senators remain as it is, and the number of the assembly increase to one hundred and fifty as provided by that amendment. GEN. ROOT moved to strike out the first and second sections of the report, and to insert in lieu thereof the following amendment : 1. The senate shall consist of thirty-six members, to be elected for three years. On the return of every census, the state shall be divided into twelve districts, as nearly as may be, equal in the number of electors, and each be entitled to three senators, one of whom to be elected annually. The districts shall be composed of contiguous territory, and not altered till the return of another cen sus. 2. The assembly shall consist of one hundred and forty-four members, to be elected annually. On the return of every census, they shall be apportioned among the several counties, according to the number of electors in them, respectively; and shall not be altered, till the return of another census. But cach County shall have one member, and no county shall have more than six members. No new county shall be erected, unless it contain one one hundred and forty-fourth part of the electors in this state. In support of the amendment Mr. R. observed, that he presumed it was well established, that senators ought to be elected for a longer term than members of the assembly; indeed, example and experience had shown the propriety of that plan. It was highly important that the senate should be a stable and permanent body, in order to which it was advisable to have it divided into classes, by which a certain number of seats might become vacant, and be filled annually, preserving at all times a majority of old members, by whose experience the new ones might annually be benefited-the whole serving as a salutary check upon the other branch of the legislature. He had various reasons for proposing the number of thirty-six for the senate, as there were now thirty-two, eight of whom would go out the first of July next, he would propose that instead of electing eight, there should be twelve elected, and continue to elect twelve annually, and vacate twelve seats annually, by which means there would at no time be more than one-third new members in the senate. The arrangement could be so made by the legislature, if not the first year, it might soon after, that each of the twelve districts into which he proposed to divide the state, would annually elect one senator; whereas by the report of the committee, seventeen districts are recommended, some of which would be entitled to three senators, and others to but one. This was contrary to the principles of equal representation, as some districts would have a fresh representative annually, and others only one in three or four years. Some had proposed to have thirty-two districts. This was objectionable, as they would not have an election in the same part of the state oftener than once in three or four years; consequently, the voice of these districts would not be annually heard in the senate; besides, they would almost forget the time when an election for senator was to happen. It would not be as familiar to them as the election of assemblymen, and they might not care so much about it. The senate would not feel that influential impulse which an election was calculated to give it—this, he thought, was an important consideration. The senate would be more apt to feel their responsibility to the people, and reverence their creator, when the public voice was annually heard. He thought thirty-six members for the senate could not be too many for this large state; he was aware that the larger the body of men, the slower, but more deliberately they would act. It was a complaint that legislatures were apt to legislate too much instead of too little. Thirty-six would not be too many for a deliberative assembly. They would not then look like a select committee |