ford, R. Sandford, Schenck, Seaman, Seeley, Sharpe, Sheldon, I. Smith, R. Smith, Starkweather, Steele, D. Southerland, Swift, Tallmadge, Taylor, Ten Eyck,Townley, Townsend, Tripp,Tuttle, Van Buren, Van Fleet, Van Ness, S. Van Rensselaer, Verbryck, Ward, A. Webster, E. Webster, Wendover, Wheeler, E. Williams, Wooster, Young-92. AYES-Messrs. Bacon, Birdseye, Duer, Edwards, Fairlie, Jay, Jones, Kent, King, Lansing, Lawrence, Paulding, Platt, Rhinelander, Rogers, Rose, Spencer, I. Sutherland, Sylvester, Van Horne, J. R. Van Rensselaer, Van Vechten, Wheaton, Woods, Woodward, Yates-26. GEN. TALLMADGE moved to strike out, 66 or on the high-ways." GEN. ROOT. That is not important at present-after the question is taken on the merits of the clause, we can then amend the phraseology if necessary. He spoke sometime in favour of the clause. GEN. TALLMADGE was in favour of striking out, and of confining the qualification of voters to such as do military duty and pay taxes. COL. YOUNG replied, and was opposed to striking out. MR. VAN BUREN supported the motion for striking out. The people were not prepared for universal suffrage. GEN. ROOT replied, that if the clause was stricken out, it would disfranchise a numerous class of persons who ought to vote. MR. JAY wished, before the motion was put, to assign the reasons which would induce him to vote against striking out, that his conduct might not seem inconsistent with his vote on the last question. He thought the persons included in this clause as much entitled to vote, as those who do military duty, and a discrimination would therefore be unjust. MR. KING begged leave to make a single remark. The qualifications as here fixed appeared to him vague and indefinite—we were leaving too much to the legislature. MR. E. WILLIAMS then went into a full explanation of the provisions of the present constitution regulating votes for the assembly, and shewed that a large class of voters would be disfranchised if this clause were stricken out. It would affect a large portion of his constituents, and he should give his vote for retaining it. MR. VAN BUREN intimated that the gentleman from Columbia was not, perhaps, so much interested in the amendinent as himself; since that gentleman, (Mr. Williams) had expressed a belief a few days ago, that we had already made the constitution worse, and he probably would not regret to see us go so far as to have all the amendments rejected by the people. COL. YOUNG remarked that the very men whom we now propose to disfranchise voted for the members of the Convention; and would they vote for a constitution, which excluded them from the right of suffrage? MR. BIRDSDYE thought the inference incorrect. It did not follow, that these persons would be excluded, if the clause was stricken out. He intended to of fer an amendment in another shape, which would include them. MR. NELSON spoke against the clause. If it passed, all the preceding qual ifications were unnecessary, as this was so wide as to embrace all-it granted universal suffrage. MR. BURROUGHS again took the floor, and replied to the gentleman from Columbia, (Mr. Williams.) MR. E. WILLIAMS disclaimed the motives which had been imputed to him; and believed he was as much interested in the amendments, and in having a constitution submitted which the people would approve, as the gentleman who had thrown out unfounded insinuations. It did not follow because he was in the minority yesterday, that therefore he wished to defeat the amendments. The gentleman from Otsego had been in the minority once or twice; but no one impeached his motives for his conduct since. He presumed when he found leisure to examine this question more minutely, he would agree with him. MR.RUSSELL was against striking out. It would disfranchise many who ought to vote. He recollected a revolutionary soldier in his town, who was at the siege of Québec, and another who was at the storming of Stoney Point, and neither would have a vote, if this motion prevailed. The committee then rose, reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again, and the Convention adjourned. THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1821. Prayer by the REV. MR. DE WITT. The President then, at the usual hour, took the chair, and the minutes of yesterday were read and approved. THE ELECTIVE FRANCHISE. MR. N. SANFORD moved that the Convention now resolve itself into a committee of the whole on the unfinished business of yesterday, (Mr. Root's amendment.) MR. YATES hoped, before the Convention went into committee, the rules of order would be settled, so as to prevent the recurrence of those embarrassments that had been yesterday experienced. After some discussion between the President, Mr. Spencer, and Mr. Yates, the question of order was postponed for the present, and the motion of Mr. Sanford prevailed. MR. N. WILLIAMS in the chair. GEN. TALLMADGE withdrew his motion of yesterday to strike out the words "on the highways," and offered the following substitute :-" Or shall for six months next and immediately preceding the election, have rented a tenement therein of the yearly value of five dollars, and shall have been rated and paid a highway tax, either by labour or commutation." MR. TOMPKINS inquired whether it was in order to receive the amendment of the gentleman from Dutchess? The Chairman decided it was in order, as the gentleman from Dutchess had withdrawn his other motion. MR. WHEELER gave notice that he should at a proper time offer the following amendment to the proposition of the gentleman from Delaware. After the word "county" in Mr. Root's amendment, to substitute the following, in lieu of the residue of said amendment, to wit: And also every other male citizen, of the age of twenty-one years, who shall have been three years an inhabitant of this state, and for one year a resident in the town or city where he may offer his vote (paupers and persons under guardianship excepted.) Provided, That persons in the military, naval or marine service of the United States shall not be considered as having obtained such residence, by being stationed in any garrison, barrack, or military place in this state." MR. TOMPKINS thought that all the amendments that had been offered were in some measure objectionable, since the qualifications were not defined by the constitution, and too much was left to the legislature. He then presented his views of the subject, which were that the right of suffrage should be extended, as proposed by the gentleman from Washington (Mr. Wheeler:) that the governor should be a freeholder, elected for two years; and that the senators should be freeholders. He therefore moved that the committee rise and report, with a view that the subject be referred back to a select committee. COL. YOUNG thought it would be better to settle the principles in committee of the whole, and hoped the gentleman from Richmond (Mr. Tompkins) would consent to withdraw his motion, that he might move to pass over the amendment of the gentleman from Delaware. MR. TOMPKINS assented, and CoL. YOUNG moved to that effect. GEN. ROOT was opposed to the motion of the gentleman from Saratoga (Mr. Young,) and commenced some remarks against it, when er. Young withdrew his motion. The question then returned on Gen. Tallmadge's motion. GEN. TALLMADGE explained at some length his views in making the motion he had yesterday submitted, and the reasons which had induced him to withdraw it, and offer the amendment which he had just presented to the committee. He took occasion to say that he was opposed to universal suffrage. COL. YOUNG opposed the amendment on the ground that it was rendering the regulation too complex, and was opening a door for swearing in votes. He preferred the amendment of the gentleman from Washington (Mr. Wheeler,) as being more simple. GEN. ROOT said the amendment of the gentleman from Dutchess was providing for the disfranchisement of a numerous class of citizens. The renting of tenements had become odious to the people, and led to many frauds. He enlarged upon the remarks of the gentleman from Niagara (Mr. Russell,) who mentioned two instances in his town, where two revolutionary patriots and soldiers, one of whom fought with Montgomery under the walls of Quebec, and the other under Wayne at Stoney Point, would be disfranchised, if this provision were stricken out. But the honourable gentleman from Otsego (Mr. Van Buren) thinks that if this clause is retained, the amendments will be jeopardized, and probably be rejected by the people. That honourable gentleman must doubtless be better acquainted with his constituents than himself, (Mr. Root.) This might be the case so far as it regarded Cooperstown, which the gentleman represented; but as Delaware was contiguous to Otsego, and as a part of the latter county was nearer to Delhi than to Cooperstown, he must claim to be as well acquainted with the sentiments of the people in that quarter as their representative. MR. VAN BUREN felt himself called on to make a few remarks in reply to the gentleman from Delaware. He observed that it was evident, and indeed some gentlemen did not seem disposed to disguise it, that the amendment propo sed by the honourable gentleman from Delaware, contemplated nothing short of universal suffrage. Mr. V. B. did not believe that there were twenty members of that committee, who, were the bare naked question of universal suffrage put to them, would vote in its favour; and he was very sure that its adoption was not expected, and would not meet the views of their constituents. Mr. V. B. then replied to a statement made yesterday by his honourable and venerable friend from Erie, (Mr. Russell,) in relation to the exclusion of soldiers who had fought at Quebec and Stoney Point, under the banners of Montgomery and Wayne. And he felt the necessity of doing this, because such cases, urged by such gentlemen as his honourable friend, were calculated to make a deep and lasting impression. But although a regard for them did honour to that gentleman, yet it was the duty of the Convention to guard against the admission of those impressions which sympathy in individual cases may excite. It was always dangerous to legislate upon the impulse of individual cases, where the law about to be enacted is to have a general operation. With reference to the case of our soldiers, the people of this state and country had certainly redeemed themselves from the imputation that republics are ungrateful. With an honourable liberality, they had bestowed the military lands upon them; and to gladden the evening of their days, had provided them with pensions. Few of those patriots were now living, and of that few, the number was yearly diminishing. In fifteen years, the grave will have covered all those who now survived. Was it not then unwise to hazard a wholesome restrictive provision, lest in its operation it might affect these few individuals for a very short time? He would add no more. His duty would not permit him to say less. One word on the main question before the committee. We had already reached the verge of universal suffrage. There was but one step beyond. And are gentlemen prepared to take that step? We were cheapening this invaluable right. He was disposed to go as far as any man in the extension of rational liberty; but he could not consent to undervalue this precious privilege, so far as to confer it with an undiscriminating hand upon every one, black or white, who would be kind enough to condescend to accept it. MR. FAIRLIE proposed the following amendment, to provide for such cases, as had been mentioned by the gentlemen from Niagara and Delaware; " And all persons who served in the army or navy of the United States in the revolutionary war." JUDGE VAN NESS thought favourably of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Washington. He had believed that property ought to be made a qualification for voting; but as that question had been decided, he was bound to acquiesce in the decision, and should not revive the discussion. The best substitute for this principle, in his opinion, was a long residence in the state, and he was pleased with the proposition, making the term of residence three years. This regulation would exclude many persons who constituted a floating population, and who ought not to vote. He examined the amendment of the gentleman from Delaware in detail, and pointed out its defects. The qualification derived from being equipped and armed to do military duty, was the highest which had been introduced. The amendment of the gentleman from Washington would include all the classes, to whom the gentleman from Delaware proposed to extend the right of suffrage, and would therefore supersede the necessity of his amendment. The amendments adopted by this Convention would be sanctioned by the people; and it therefore became us to act with more caution and circumspection. He apprehended if we each would yield a little, we might act with unanimity. JUDGE PLATT thought it was very important, that the qualifications of voters should be fixed with precision by the constitution, and that nothing should be left to the legislature. That department of the government was fluctuating, and liable to high party excitement; and it would be unwise and dangerous to entrust it with the power of regulating the right of suffrage, any farther than was indispensably necessary. He disagreed with the gentleman from Columbia, (Judge Van Ness) that residence should be made almost the sole qualification for voting. Persons might have resided long in the state, who were wholly unqualified to exercise the elective franchise. Mr. P. alluded to the remarks of the gentleman from Dutchess, (Mr. Livingston) who in an air of ridicule spoke of the large cities which were hereafter to spring up in this state. That gentleman had once been mistaken in regard to the western parts of the state, and he believed his views would now prove equally erroneous. He believed the picture of the future growth of the state, as pourtrayed by the gentleman from Columbia (Judge Van Ness) a few days since, was not overdrawn, and that all his predictions of the greatness of the state would be verified. In view of this state of things, he was opposed to universal suffrage, as it might endanger the future liberties and welfare of the state. The elective privilege was neither a right nor a franchise, but was, inore properly speaking, an office. A citizen had no more right to claim the privilege of voting, than of being elected. The office of voting must be considered in the light of a public trust; and the electors were public functionaries, who had certain duties to perform for the benefit of the whole community. His plan was, that no person should be vested with the elective privilege, except such as paid taxes on real or personal estate; and that too much might not be left to the legislature, the constitution should limit the amount of the tax, say at one dollar. MR. WHEELER spoke for some time in favour of the amendinent offered by him, and against the amendment of the gentleman from Delaware. The principal objection to Mr. Root's plan appeared to him to be, that the qualification of voters were left too vague, and the discriminations were in some cases arbitrary. Gentlemen had been lavish of their encomiums on the militia. We had heen conducted to the plains of Marathon, and the mountains of Switzerland, to illustrate the bravery of our own troops. No one had a greater respect for the militia than himself; but of whom were they composed; Of the farmers and mechanics of the state, who would be provided for by other qualifications. His amendment would include all these classes, as well as many others who were equally entitled to vote. GEN. J. R. VAN RENSSELAER said, that all the plans which had been submitted to the Convention, appeared to him objectionable. The proposition of the gentleman from Washington would terminate in universal suffrage. It admitted persons of all descriptions to vote. He concluded by reading the following substitute, which he intended at a proper time to offer. Other than paupers or persons who have been, or may hereafter be, convicted of an infamous crime, who shall hold, possess, or be seized in his own right or in right of his wife, of an interest in lands, tenements, or hereditaments of the value of two hundred and fifty dollars, over and above all debts charged thereon; or who shall have been for three years an inhabitant of this state, and for one year next and immediately preceding the election, have been a resident in the city, ward or town in which he may offer his vote, and shall have actually been taxed, and paid in money on a state or county tax, within one year next preceding the election, at least the sum of shall be entitled to vote in the city, ward or town in which he may then actually reside, for governor, lieutenant-governor, senators, and; members of assembly. And that all such electors, together with all other citizens of this state, who shall have been rated, and paid taxes to any amount, or shall be enrolled and have actually performed military duty, or who shall have been assessed to work on any public highway, and shall have worked thereon, or have paid a commutation therefor, shall be entitled to vote at elections for all other elective officers." MR. J. SUTHERLAND. I have taken no part in the discussion of the different questions, in relation to the right of suffrage, not, because I have not felt the importance of the subject, but because I was sensible that most of the considerations which would influence its decision, would be more forcibly urged by others. I have felt the great importance of the subject. It lies at the very foundation of every representative government; and the decision which we shall finally pronounce upon it, must most essentially affect the future character of all our institutions. I could not enter into the feelings of those gentlemen, who thought that in parting with the freehold qualification for senatorial electors, we gave up our only guarantee for the unmolested enjoyment of life, liberty, and property--that we were committing the sacred institutions of our forefathers, under which we have lived and prospered for more than forty years, to the winds and to the waves of a turbulent and unbalanced democracy. If I could have thought so, I should have united my feeble efforts to theirs in endeavouring to preserve that feature of our constitution. But without entering into the argument of that question, I did believe with the honourable gentleman from Queens, that public opinion called for the abolition of the freehold qualification. By public opinion, I do not mean popular clamour, which in truth is often produced by a very few individuals: I mean the calm and deliberate judgment of the people, pronounced upon a subject on which they are competent to think and to decide, after it has been fairly proposed, and temperately and fully discussed. To public opinion thus understood, I would yield every thing: To popular clamour nothing. I will not detain the committee by attempting to show that the question to which I have alluded, is one on which the people are capable of thinking or deciding; nor with an enumeration of the circumstances, which have induced me to believe, that a large majority of those who are interested in the question, wish the freehold qualification abolished. I will only advert to the fact of the great unanimity with which that question was decided by the Convention, which contains perhaps as fair and respectable a representation of the freehold interest of the state as could be assembled. He thought gentlemen did not realize, how far they have already extended the right of suffrage. We have given to that large and respectable portion of our fellow citizens, who under our present constitution, can vote only for members of assembly, the privilege of voting for governor and senators also; they have now an equal participation with the freeholders of the state in the choice of all the officers of government. He believed, that the people of this state would be satisfied with this extension-that they did not wish nor expect that portion of our population, to whom it has heretofore been thought unsafe or unwise to entrust the right of suffrage, even for a single branch of the government, to be admitted to the great and responsible privilege of choosing all its departments: It was making a violent, and, he believed, an unexpected stride -It was vibrating from one extreme to the other. It is not to be denied-it is a fact, which all observation and all history teaches, that there is and must be, in every great community, a class of citizens, who, destitute alike of property, of character, and of intelligence, neither contribute to the support of its insti |