or three, including the royal charter of Rhode-Island, he would cheerfully record his vote against the amendment.

MR. EDWARDS followed in the debate, and spoke at considerable length on the same side of the question.

JUDGE VAN NESS said, this was a question on which every member should have the privilege of expressing his sentiments; and before it was decided, he felt it incumbent on him to assign the reasons which would govern his vote. He should need the indulgence of the committee, as it was many years since he had attempted to speak in a deliberative assembly; and he felt that he was trespassing upon the patience of the house, already weary of a protracted debate.

The gentleman from New-York (Mr. Radcliff) had laid down the general principles, upon which all questions of this nature must be decided. It is a right inherent in the people, who in a free state constitute the sovereign power, to establish such a form of government, as they shall think the best calculated to secure life, liberty, and property. These are the three great objects for which all governments are instituted, and to which all minor considerations should bend. If the security of these primary objects required, that a class of the community should be excluded from a participation in the affairs of government, they had no just grounds of complaint; provided such an exclusion was conducive to the general welfare. It had never been considered a hardship, that females, minors, foreigners, and convicts, should be excluded from taking any part in the administration of the government. Public policy required the discrimination, and it never had been a subject of complaint.

The framers of our present constitution endeavoured to accomplish the three great objects which had been mentioned: but the people, supposing that in some respects these ends were not as perfectly secured as they might be, had sent us here to revise the existing constitution, and to make such alterations as a long experience, and the changes in the circumstances and condition of the state, have rendered necessary.

The committee on the right of suffrage have made their report, by which they recommend the abolition of the present qualifications of electors; and the amendment, now under consideration, is supposed, by some members of this Convention, to be preferable to the qualification stated in that report. What was this amendment? To revive the recollection of the committee, and that they might the better understand the bearing of his remarks, he would take the liberty to read it. [Here Mr. V. N. read the amendment offered by Mr. Spencer, and dwelt sometime on a comparison between its provisions, and those of the amendments offered by Mr. Root, and the report of the select committee.] He then adverted to the qualifications of voters, as fixed by the present constitution; and thought, we should be fully satisfied that the regulation was injudicious and imperfect, before we proceeded to make any alteration. We had lived forty-four years under the present constitution: and during this long period, he did not know that there had been any serious complaints on this subject. The state continued to flourish, and the people were contented and happy. There were, however, some defects in the present regulation of the right of suffrage, which the amendment would rectify.

The existing constitution excludes all leaseholders and equitable freeholders. In relation to the latter, he entertained a different opinion from that which had been expressed by his colleague, (Mr. Williams,) for it was his opinion, that those who had been termed equitable freeholders, holding merely under contracts executed by the landholders, were not entitled, as the constitution now stands, to vote even for members of assembly. So far, then, from restricting the right of suffrage, the amendment under consideration would extend that right to that vast body of citizens in the northern and western counties, who had been denominated equitable freeholders, and to those leaseholders who held for a long term of years. Of the latter class were numerous lessees of the Trinity church, in the city of New-York; and those lessees, in various other parts of the state, who not unfrequently held leases for the term of 999 years; and of course were vested with a more valuable interest in the estate,

than a man holding for the term of his own life, or the life of another, which in law was denominated a freehold.

An idea had been suggested, that the amendment was calculated to raise up a privileged order. It was certainly a very extraordinary privileged order, which should include nine-tenths of the people: for to such a proportion of the the community he believed the amendment would extend. It includes all the farmers and respectable mechanics: for it is a fact which he might confidently urge, that a large proportion of mechanics in the cities and villages, and nearly all in the country are freeholders. It also induces eyery man who resides amongst us, to acquire the privilege of voting, by pursuing a course of industry and frugality. And if the owner of personal property values the right of suffrage, it is easy for him to acquire it by converting some small portion of his personal property into real estate.

From the statement that has been presented to the committee by the honourable gentleman from Otsego, (Mr. Van Buren) it might be implied, that the owners of the soil owned no part of the one hundred and fifty millions of person al estate which he had referred to. The fact, however, was otherwise; for he confidently asserted, that taking the state at large, even including the city of New-York, with its vast commercial and banking capital, and the holders of government stock, the owners of the real estate yet own nineteen-twentieths. Who, then, would be excluded from the right of voting if this amendment were adopted? Those, and those only, who have no property, and of course no interest in the government. And from what part of the right of suffrage would even this class be excluded? From the election of senators alone. After this slight deduction, if the proposition of the gentleman from Delaware should be adopted, every male citizen above the age of twenty-one, who has a permanent residence in the state, would enjoy the privilege of voting, 1st, for governor; 2d, for members of the assembly; 3d, for town officers; 4th, for a great number of town and county officers, now appointed by the council of appointment, if the appointing power should be sent back to the people, as is contemplated, and as he hoped would be the case. It appeared to him that the exercise of the right of suffrage, in these numerous instances, would be as much as this class of citizens had a right to claim from their interest in the government, and as much as they ought to ask or wish; leaving the senate to be elected by the owners of the soil.

He dwelt for some time upon the importance of the senate, and the propriety of the qualifications, as proposed by the amendment. We require jurors to be freeholders; and should there not be an equal responsibility in those who elect the senate, which is not only the most important branch of the legislature, but also the highest judicial tribunal in the state? Life, liberty, and property were at their disposal, as a court of final jurisdiction, and he could not conceive of a more important body.

He warned gentlemen of doubtful and dangerous innovations. The principles of liberty were here, and here only understood and enjoyed. They have had a sickly and feverish existence in other countries; but America was almost the only nation on the globe that possessed the blessings of rational freedom. It was the chosen residence of liberty, and we should beware how we sported with the boon, lest by striving for too much, we should lose the whole. We did not come here to introduce or establish republicanism—that had already been done by our fathers, who achieved the revolution, and framed our present excellent constitution; and it was our business to preserve it.

One of the most important and delicate exertions of the legislative power, was undoubtedly that of taxation; and on what class do the burthens of government principally fall; On the landed interest, because they are the owners of the largest proportion of the property of the state. This is well known, and was felt, not only in peace, but during the late war. A debt of two or three millions has also been created for the construction of the canals. The expenses of the government were also heavy and large sums had been loaned to individuals, much of which had been lost, All this must necessarily fall on the landed interest. During the late war, a tax upon real estate was the final resource, and the one mill tax has since been paid by the freeholders. In other respects the

aid of the freehold interest was most essential in time of war. Much had been said about the services of the militia: but what, he asked, would the militia be, without money to pay them, and to purchase implements and munitions of war? When men are called upon to fill the ranks, where are they to be found? When regiments are called out, the freeholders, and sons of freeholders, and mechanics are at hand. They have homes which they cannot desert, and they, therefore, stand the draft, whilst the transient character swings the pack that contains his all, and leaves the country to take care of itself. Money may hire them to act as mercenary substitutes, but neither law, nor a sense of duty, can urge them into battle. The real and efficient security of the country, therefore, in time of war, even in its physical strength, is to be found in the freehold interest.

Gentlemen would recollect the fact, that at one period during the late war, the general government found itself not only destitute of funds but of credit. Then it was that our patriotic militia were called on to defend the country, and the finances of the state appropriated to equip, clothe, and support them: and then it also was, that the credit of the general government was re-established by imposing a heavy tax upon the real estate of the nation.

There was another consideration which with him had great weight. It is a fact which has no trifling bearing on the question now under discussion, that every nation extensively engaged in agriculture, commerce, and manufactures, has in it two great and rival interests, which grow out of these combined pursuits. These were the monied and landed interests. The past and present condition of Great Britain evinced this fact; and the lines between them were as distinctly drawn, as between the sexes. It was in the nature of man, that the object of his labour should become dearer by the pursuit. The late William Pitt was charged with favouring the monied interest, and had created a large debt, which devolved on the landed interest to pay; and the agricultural interest in that country was still depressed in consequence of being compelled to defray not only the ordinary expenses of the government, but also to meet the interest on the enormous amount, which has been added to the national debt by him and his successors in power.

The monied interest was generally the most powerful. It had been so even in Great Britain. In our constitution, it was peculiarly represented in every department except one, the senate; and in that he thought it was wise and politic to give to the landed interest an influence to check, in that single instance, the monied interest, which might otherwise impose all the public debts and burdens, on the landed interest. He did not appeal to the farmers, or to any particular class of men, but to the good sense of all. The senate could invade the rights of no man. It would obtain no increase of positive power; but in the hands of farmers might become a salutary check to encroachments by a rival and formidable interest. This was a safe depository. There was more virtue and patriotism; more wisdom and moderation, in the middle than in any of the other ranks of society. They were not ordinarily zealous partisans. They are the patrons of your institutions, civil and religious. They build your churches and defend your altars, and the country of which they are the protectors. They erect your school houses; found and support your colleges and seminaries of learning; establish and maintain your charitable institutions; and construct your roads and canals.

it had been said, that there was no danger of combinations. Perhaps that danger was not extensive and alarming at present; but as we advance in wealth and population, we follow in the wake of other nations. Look at Great Britain. Do not the monied interests combine, and absorb, and array all the respective forces they can gather? Even in our own country, is there not a question now pending before the general government, in relation to the tariff, in which the manufacturing and commercial interests are arrayed in hostility to each other, and are actively engaged in rallying forces under their respective banners? The country is convulsed with the agitation of this question, and it is supposed by many, that it will at no distant period produce an entire change of political parties, equally exasperated against each other as those which now exist,

It had been said that the amendment savoured of aristocracy. What is aristocracy? It is the exercise of the powers of government by a few. But the amendment would embrace nine-tenths, if not nineteen-twentieth of the adult male population, who have a permanent home in the state. So far, then, from favouring an aristocracy, it went to the establishment of a government directed by the many.

The virtuous middling classes may thus hold the balance between the profligate poor and the profligate rich. They form the balance wheel of the political machinery. They cannot be conspirators; they are too many in number; and spread over too wide a space of territory. The days and dangers of aristocracy and monarchy are gone by. Those powers in the state governments most liable to usurpation and abuse, have been transferred to the general government, which now holds the purse strings of the nation. Should combinations ever be formed hostile to our free institutions, that is the quarter from which you may expect them; for there is centered the moral and physical power of the country.

It should be remembered that we are acting, not for ourselves and this generation only, but for posterity. The day may come, when the state will be convulsed with civil commotions-when we may have riots and bloodshed; and wise men are bound to provide against future evils and calamities, by creating such depositories of power as shall at all times be competent to afford protection to all, by preserving the supremacy of the laws. Our blessings under the protection of Providence are owing to the mediocrity of our condition. It had been said, and it was not improbable, that this was the last Convention that would ever be assembled in the state; and if you now give out of the hands of the landed interests their rights, they can never be recalled.

The city of New-York now contains a population of 123,000, and it already has 12 or 14,000 voters. It is rapidly increasing; and with the addition of new voters, will elect whoever they please for governor, possess a controling influence in the assembly, and in fact rule the state. Shall we be called on to surrender the senate also, and thus strip the agricultural interest of every vestige of power?

What would be the character of the future population of the metropolis, and of other large cities which would spring up in various parts of the state? It would in all human probability comprise a few men of inordinate wealth, and a multitude degraded by vice and oppressed with poverty. These were the proper materials for the most dangerous species of aristocracy. The monied interest would be in the hands of the profligate and ambitious, who would make use of their wealth to bribe and purchase the votes of the venal classes of society. The time is not distant, when those that have nothing, will form a majority in cities and large villages, and constitute a large portion of the population, even in the country. Emigrants of all descriptions, and from every quarter of the globe, were constantly pouring in, to swell the tide of population, and in many cases to increase the mass of vice, ignorance, and poverty. Extensive factories were daily springing up, and would hereafter be filled with crowds of dependants, whose votes would be at the disposal of the wealthy owners. These establishments, if all who were employed in them were permitted to vote, would possess an overwhelming and dangerous influence.

Was it unreasonable, then, to ask protection for the paramount interest of the state the farming interest? Would it not be safe, would it not be wise and salutary, to provide some check upon the influence of excessive wealth and profligate penury? And how could such a check be more discreetly provided, or lodged in safer hands, than by investing those with peculiar privileges, who, by honest industry, and rigid economy, had, with the smiles of Providence, acquired property? This description of our population were commonly persons of sober, temperate, and frugal habits, little disposed to abuse power or forget right. But what was the character of the poor? Generally speaking, vice and poverty go hand in hand. Penury and want almost invariably follow in the train of idleness, prodigality, intemperance, and sensuality. Was it not wise to discountenance these vices, by encouraging their opposite virtues ?

It had been said that the amendment would give an undue influence to the landholders. But it is well known that the large landholders in this state, are even now few in number. In a few years they are gone. The law of descents is rapidly breaking up their estates; and it surely would not be said, that our institutions were in danger from the influence of the small farmers in the country. The great object of government was to protect what was lawfully acquired. Where property is insecure, you find despotism. Freedom flourishes where property is safe.

We had already given the executive a veto upon all laws. Some gentlemen apprehended evils might arise from this-that the governor would become the mere creature of the legislature, dependant on their will, and subservient to their wishes. If the senate was preserved, as this amendment proposed, the danger which had been feared would be avoided. The senate would form a stable and independent body, and would check any encroachments upon the rights and liberties of the people, either from the other branch of the legislature, or the executive.

An argument, of as much weight perhaps as any that had been urged, was drawn from other states, in none of which, it had been said, was there a distinction of the kind, which the amendment proposes. He begged the indulgence of the committee for a moment, while he adverted to the state of Massachusetts. An attempt had been made by the county of Suffolk, embracing the capital of the state, and a powerful monied interest, to obtain an ascendancy and control over the legislature, by proposing a representation in proportion to real and personal property. But the yeomanry of Massachusetts instantly took the alarm. It was foreseen that the country would be politically enslaved by the enormous wealth and influence of the capital, and the farmers of the state, true to their interest, interfered and defeated the project.

But he could not forbear to remark, that in all our proceedings, too much importance appeared to be attached to the examples of other states.

It should be recollected that the state of New-York, in moral and physical power, was not inferior to any other in the union. It was, therefore, entitled to take the lead, instead of being taught by every petty state beyond the Allegany mountains. Those states were of recent origin, and without experience; and there was little or no analogy between our condition, and that of any of those to whom reference had been made. They have no states like ours. They have no metropolis like New-York, whose commerce extends to every sea, and whose wealth is drawn from every state. An emporium into which is to flow, on the surface of the grand canal, the produce of a vast and fertile interior, bordering on the western lakes, whose shores are more extensive than the Mediterranean or Baltic. Albany, too, will probably become a great city; and is doubtless destined, with Buffalo and Rochester, to rival in extent and wealth the cities of Liverpool, Bristol, and Manchester. And what will be the condition of their population? By an irreversible decree of Providence, it is pronounced," the poor ye have always with you"-people who have no interest in your institutions-no fixedness of habitation—no property to defend. And is it not in human nature to envy superiority, in whatever it may consist; and to wish to dispossess, and obtain that which is envied? Is there not danger, then, in departing too far from that system which our ancestors ordained?

Our state is now going on with the patience of the ox, the wisdom and sagacity of the elephant, and the strength of the lion, in the path of prosperity. And yet, in this hallowed land, from the uneasiness that is exhibited, and the complaints that are made, one would suppose that we were writhing under an Algerine despotism. But whatever way the current may set, let us "do justly and fear not." Popularity is a shadow that shifts with the luminary which casts it; nor can its bearing to-day, indicate its position to-morrow. The President of the Convention has told us, with becoming exultation, that twenty years ago, he resisted, alone and separate from his party, a measure introduced to reduce the power of the executive. The time might come, when the gentleman from Dutchess, (Mr. Livingston) might witness in this state a prospect similar to the one he had taken from the battlements of the palace in the neighbourhood of Paris, a confiscation by the abandoned poor, of the honestly and hard